Rolling off volume for clean tones....LP issue

[daz]

I was looking for people who have found the same thing as me and found this guy's post who seems to agree with me. May be worth a look. On a side note, this has completely changed how i feel about this LP. I can now get all the tonnes i need from it unlike before ad have even had to adjust my amp settings to compensate for the extra clarity and brightness. I even put the pickup covers back on because they no longer need to be off in order to help get as much clarity as possible. Anyways, i found this guy's post and he seems pretty knowledgable but like e seemed a bit surprised at the effect of multi conductor pickup cable capacitance. He appears to be the winder/owner of zexcoil pickups. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...uency.1162900/

[daz]

Well, i'm not going to try and figure out why theory doesn't seem to apply here, but i know what i hear. And if anyone thinks i am Mr placebo here or suffering fro confirmation bias, I have one question for you.....why did i not hear the fix in the other 756,397 things i tried?
As to the treble bleed cap you mentioned Chuck, it's not that it didn't work, it just didn't have nearly the degree of effect they usually do. W/O it yielded total mud. WITH it it DID stay brighter as i turned down. The problem is it did NOT retain nearly as much brightness as they usually do, and the key point is it retained LESS brightness then i get on 10. I have only seen that one other time, and that was with a PRS SE which i never figured out. And i went crazy with that one to before i gave up and sold it. But then i didnt try THIS fix that fixed my epiphone. So anyways, i tried 250 500, and 1000pf caps without resistors. All gave me a less bright sound when i turned down than on 10 to the point the tone was dull and lifeless. But YES, more bright than no treble bleed at all. So the cap did brighten up low volume settings Chuck, it just did so to about 1/2 the degree it does with other guitars. Usually i get too much brightness with other guitars with too big a cap. This one wouldnt retain the same degree of bright as i get on 10 no matter the cap value. Trust me, that makes no more sense to me than it does to you. Had the result been that the retained brightness was as bright as on 10 this thread would not exist. But just like you AND I are puzzled by why a treble bleed didn't retain the same degree of brightness as on 10, the fact i fixed it with the cable should not be a big surprise because like i said somehow theory doesn't always tell the whole story.

Lastly, i think it was questioned as to why i would try hardware changes. Simple.....hardware can and often does especially on budget guitars add brightness And indeed it did especially the faber steel body inserts at the bridge and tailpiece. (stock ones are zinc. The thought process there was if i can brighten the guitar up a lot i can change the balance between the volume on 10 and the volume on say 5. And it did help but it was a bandaid that didnt work well. And no, turning up brightness at the amp does NOT work. Brightness coming from the guitar is a very different thing than adding it at the amp in as far as how it works to achieve what i am after. I'm not a tech and don't have your theory, but i DO have ears and i know the signal chain and how frequencies work within it, the things that will achieve what i am after and those that won't. I have many decades F'ing with stuff that is a different way of achieving what i need than theory, and i have come to rely on what works to get me what i want thru previous experience rather then theory. Thats what led me to this cable fix, and had i used theory instead i wouldn't have tried it !!!

[Chuck H]

It caused treble loss period, not only when rolling the volume down. BUT, it became way worse rolled off because guitar tone needs more brightness as you get cleaner or it becomes very dull and lifeless. It's now brighter on 10 and stays the same as i roll down. Before it was a bit less bright overall but when i rolled the volume down for cleans it had less brightness and sounded dull and thuddy. I think you know the sound i mean. Just zero punch/attack, no clarity. Unusable to the point i DID'T use it I used that guitar for tunes that didn't require varied degrees of gain ay lower then 10.

It doesnt matter what theory says. This would not be even close to the first time i have heard things that theory would say can't be. Ears and theory often dont mix

Unfortunately these results are "all yours" and when they don't exactly agree with others perceptions the actual circuit changes and test circumstances come into question (for everyone but you). I think I clarified my position above about this. What I think may be happening is that there is a particular nuance of the circumstances that post pickup remedies didn't fix for your ears. And fixing these things at the pickups themselves is something YOU hear in nuance, feel to the player, etc. that maybe others are less sensitive to. Like I said, I've known you here a long time and I know you know tone. Or at least what you like. I've never known you to be contrary to what "could" be. Rather, more accute with your perception. THat is to say I've never been able to find fault in your circuit solutions. Sometimes it seems subtle but never unaccountable. And...

I still don't understand your poor bright cap results from earlier and therefor question the original circuit and test circumstances. Because this is an effect I'm very familiar with. But that doesn't mean that some nuance to your ears wasn't satisfied by the usual corrections. So I remain skeptical about accuracy for your original circuit and the subsequent evaluations but I don't doubt that it could be your solution could only be with the corrections you've made.

I did run some simulations with humbucker models and approximations of capacitance for multiconductor cables and the results were only tiny compared to what we see with bright caps and cable capacitance. So I still have to wonder about the original circuit and test circumstances.

[daz]

I 've measured many PU cables, 2-, 3- and 4-conductor types for capacitance between individual conductors and conductors to shield/ground.

There is a lot of difference between different types, but by far the largest capacitance per inch I found with the Gibson type cloth insulated braided coax cable.
Moreover the capacitance of the Gibson type cable largely varies with ambient humidity.
Measurements included original Gibson PU cable from the 50s and 60s as well as aftermarket (e.g. StewMac) cable.
Still in most cases the capacitance of the guitar cable is much larger than that of the PU cable.

I generally don't like those 4-conductor PU cables as they cause additional secondary series and parallel PU resonances.
Nevertheless I don't understand how the PU cable being before the volume pot could affect the treble loss when rolling back the volume.

It caused treble loss period, not only when rolling the volume down. BUT, it became way worse rolled off because guitar tone needs more brightness as you get cleaner or it becomes very dull and lifeless. It's now brighter on 10 and stays the same as i roll down. Before it was a bit less bright overall but when i rolled the volume down for cleans it had less brightness and sounded dull and thuddy. I think you know the sound i mean. Just zero punch/attack, no clarity. Unusable to the point i DID'T use it I used that guitar for tunes that didn't require varied degrees of gain ay lower then 10.

It doesnt matter what theory says. This would not be even close to the first time i have heard things that theory would say can't be. Ears and theory often dont mix

[Helmholtz]

I 've measured many PU cables, 2-, 3- and 4-conductor types for capacitance between individual conductors and conductors to shield/ground.

There is a lot of difference between different types, but by far the largest capacitance per inch I found with the Gibson type cloth insulated braided coax cable.
Moreover the capacitance of the Gibson type cable largely varies with ambient humidity.
Measurements included original Gibson PU cable from the 50s and 60s as well as aftermarket (e.g. StewMac) cable.
Still in most cases the capacitance of the guitar cable is much larger than that of the PU cable.

I generally don't like those 4-conductor PU cables as they cause additional secondary series and parallel PU resonances.
Nevertheless I don't understand how the PU cable being before the volume pot could affect the treble loss when rolling back the volume.

[daz]

This should not be required as shorting out the 2 conductors at the pickup negates any capacitance those 2 wires may have between them. You could A/B test some time if you are doing the mod to some other pickup.

If i didn't remove them then those to coil wires would still be inside the jacket running alongside the hot and ground and i would expect that could ad capacitance. Wasn't gonna take any chances that might compromise the result and i didn't need them anyways. They sound like cap split so no reason for them. I am considering getting vintage push back braid for them. Might be even better given the space between the braid and hot due to the thickness of the cloth.

[g1]

Yes, AND of course remove them from the wires that run thru the cable.

This should not be required as shorting out the 2 conductors at the pickup negates any capacitance those 2 wires may have between them. You could A/B test some time if you are doing the mod to some other pickup.

[daz]

Can you clarify the re-wire? Am I correct that the 4 conductor is a long run and 2 wires are shorted together far from the pickup? And the fix is to short them together at the pickup?

Yes, AND of course remove them from the wires that run thru the cable. So basically you have the same thing as the vintage gibson pickup except with a plastic jacket instead of bare shielding and a tiny hot conductor with super thin jacket as opposed to the vintage cloth center lead. The thing i dont think anyone, even you guys here can really wrap your head around is how the 4 conductors that are the coil start and finish of both coils all wrapped up tightly together with only thin plastic between them all would affect the tone. You have coil start and finish X2 interacting. I imagine this could even cause phase issues let alone capacitance? Whatever is happening this was a real game changer for me. I'd have sold it if i hadn't moved to a rather rural area where it's hard to sell anything. Glad i wasn't able to now.

[g1]

Can you clarify the re-wire? Am I correct that the 4 conductor is a long run and 2 wires are shorted together far from the pickup? And the fix is to short them together at the pickup?

[Chuck H]

You're right to think that most of us here would consider the capacitance in the muti conductor pickups insignificant. But JSYK I'm not going to question your result. I've known you here for a long time and I know that you have a more accute and selective ear than most. That said...

There's still something about the prior circumstances that didn't seem right. But regardless, that could have something to do with your particular sensitivities and perceptions. So this worked for you. And if you say the multi conductor pickup cables are making an audible difference I believe it.

[daz]

I had to post this after nearly a year to say i finally figured this out. (the tweak in a minute) And i know many if not most of you will not believe me. I have debated doing this since day one but it seemed a bit far fetched at first but after thinking more about it i tried it and now i can roll the volume down and it cleans up much better. The big thing is before i had pretty good crispness and aliveness in the tone on 10 and was happy with that, but no treble bleed or modern wiring scenario would retain that bright crisp sound as i tuned down. It would actually be LESS bright and defined as i lowered the volume to get clean and it would not get very clean at all. Don't even bother mentioning all the other possibilities because aside from what finally did the trick, i had previously tried everything, and i mean EVERYTHING. Read the thread and i think i listed it all or at east most.

Now the fix, and i suspected this for a long time but it did seem a bit far fetched. I got into the 4 conductor pickups and removed the wires that carried the wires fro each coils that are where they connect together. The idea was capacitance in the pickup wires due to very thin wires with jackets so thin they are probably less than the thickness of paper all bunched together inside the main jacket. You have all 4 coil wires in there so close to each other due to the paper thin plastic jackets that i came to the conclusion that even tho the cables are only 8 or 10 inches long, the proximity of all four wires being separated by plastic that thin i thought could cause enough capacitance to cause this The symptoms i felt just reeked of cable capacitance so i finally tried it. The difference is wonderful. Gibson 50s/60s standards have this alive bright sound and it also struck me they have single conductor pickups So against what i know 99% of people wuld say if asked, i tried it Man, this think just kills now and is SOOOOO much more useful. I'm a big "ride the volume" for cleans and edge sound kinda player and till now i only used it for tunes that are always on 10 all the way thru or a tad less at most. Now i can get far cleaner and the brightness is retained to the point i can even turn the treble on my amp down. I realy believe that it's things like this, usually several of them summed that make lower end versions of higher end fenders and gibson sound better, and when you figure it out u really can make budget versions sound as good. I have done that with fenders forever...bridges being the biggest culprits so i know what each one needs from the get go when i acquire one. But being a fender guy all my life with few exceptions, i'm pretty new to gibsons so i'm not experienced in what differences make the USA equivalents sound better. Chuck....i recall you saying you gave up riding your LP's volume for the same reason, so If its 4 conductor, try this. I'l be playing mine a LOT ore from now on. Can't wait til the next gig

[Chuck H]

FWIW at the usual gain level I run I don't even try to get clean with humbuckers by rolling the volume down. And when I say "I don't even try" it's because I have. And it didn't work. (<period). Some guys do it with Les Pauls. Ok but I've never figured that out for myself. Different srokes.

[daz]

No compressors, nothing but a slight touch of delay. Anyways, i think the problem is my descriptions don't translate to what you guys think i mean. It's no one fault, just that theres no way anyone can really understand what is happening due to the impossibility of describing tone and dynamics in words. I can tell by the replies im getting that my descriptions aren't clear and/or the words i am using to describe things aren't understood in the way i intended them to be. So lets just leave it there because i can see that it's futile. Don't take it the wrong way.....absolutely nothing about you guys. Just too hard to describe. Thanks for tying tho as always.

[The Dude]

Just to be sure: Is there any compressor or expander on the patches being used in your modeler?

[Chuck H]

I'm used to having my clean to scream range between 10 and 5, 4 at the lowest.

We must have a different definition of "scream". Using my HSS strat and switching to the single coils I have to turn down to 1.5/2 for cleans. My amp has about the same gain as the 68 Marshall plexi circuit with the extra bypass cap (think EVH). and I do crank it. No way I could get clean on five even with singles.

I'm starting to understand why you're writing though because something does seem to be wrong with the circuits behavior as per your observations. I'm thinking on it but looking at your diagram (which looks fine) I got nothin' right now.