Hows everyone doing? Hard Times USA hows the Pickup bizz?

[Mark Hammer]

When I saw the thread header, I was going to add something about the market possibly becoming saturated, but then I was greeted with the actual content of the thread.

I concur with the good doctor. Let's stay friends. I remember the dark days of Ampage 2001-2003 only too well, and can well do without a return to them.

[Possum]

....

Here are the guys Obama consulted, I don't know where you get your information from, Fox News is basically a propaganda machine for the Bush admin, you ought to consult more sources than one obviously:

"Obama's economic panel included former treasury secretary Robert Rubin, former Federal Reserve chairperson Paul Volcker, billionaire investor Warren Buffett and Google chairperson Eric Schmidt.

Boosting Obama's appeal for a break with partisan politics, two ex-members of President George Bush's administration -- treasury secretary Paul O'Neill and securities and exchange commissioner William Donaldson -- also attended."

If "socialism" is bad then stop paying into social security, are you going to refuse the checks when you retire? Are you going to refuse Medicare? Should we tear down the buildings, bridges and highways constructed under the New Deal?
_________________________________________

These McBush/WhackJob ticket guys can dish it but they are two faced liars, here is a quote and short info article on Palin who practices "socialism" in her own governorship in Alaska, "share the wealth indeed:"
"........But Palin’s criticisms of Obama’s “spread the wealth” remarks are ironic, as she recently characterized Alaska’s tax code in a very similar way. Just last month, in an interview with Philip Gourevitch of the New Yorker, Palin explained the windfall profits tax that she imposed on the oil industry in Alaska as a mechanism for ensuring that Alaskans “share in the wealth” generated by oil companies:

"And Alaska—we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs. … It’s to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans."

In fact, Alaska’s Clear and Equitable Share (ACES) program, which manages the redistribution of oil wealth in Alaska, brings in so much money that the state needs no income or sales tax. In addition, this year ACES will provide every Alaskan with a check for an estimated $3,200.

As Hendrick Hertzberg notes, “Perhaps there is some meaningful distinction between spreading the wealth and sharing it…but finding it would require the analytic skills of Karl the Marxist.”
_________________________________________

Palin rants about "anti-American" blah blah blah, (is she the new McArthy, are we going to start black listing people for being "commies" again? Here is an article from an investigative journalist Salon.com sent to Alaska to investigate Palin's ties to the Alaskan Independence Party:
The Palins' un-American activities
Imagine if the Obamas had hooked up with a violently anti-American group in league with the government of Iran.

By David Talbot



Oct. 7, 2008 | "My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."

This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.

Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that's the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. ("Keep up the good work," Palin told AIP members. "And God bless you.")

AIP chairwoman Lynette Clark told me recently that Sarah Palin is her kind of gal. "She's Alaskan to the bone ... she sounds just like Joe Vogler."

So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin' around with?

Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, "When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don't have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we're ready to die."

This quote is from "Coming Into the Country," by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska's remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book. The violent-tempered secessionist vowed to McPhee that if any federal official tried to stop him from polluting Alaska's rivers with his earth-moving equipment, he would "run over him with a Cat and turn mosquitoes loose on him while he dies."

Vogler wasn't just a blowhard either. He put his secessionist ideas into action, working to build AIP membership to 20,000 -- an impressive figure by Alaska standards -- and to elect party member Walter Hickel as governor in 1990.

Vogler's greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States "tyranny" before the entire world and to demand Alaska's freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.

That's right ... Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran.

AIP leaders allege that Vogler, who was murdered that year by a fellow secessionist, was taken out by powerful forces in the U.S. before he could reach his U.N. platform. "The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed," by Vogler's U.N. speech, darkly suggests Clark. "And we can't have that, can we?"

The Republican ticket is working hard this week to make Barack Obama's tenuous connection to graying, '60s revolutionary Bill Ayers a major campaign issue. But the Palins' connection to anti-American extremism is much more central to their political biographies.

Imagine the uproar if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in his cause? The Obama campaign would probably not have survived such an explosive revelation. Particularly if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago.

Where's the outrage, Sarah Palin has been asking this week, in her attacks on Obama's fuzzy ties to Ayers? The question is more appropriate when applied to her own disturbing associations.
_________________________________________

The pickup forum, well, I'd say we're all basically anarchists, mob rule here so I guess that makes us all "anti-American."

Before you vote, don't rely on one narrow minded source to make your decision by. My vote is based on ---which person ran the tightest best organized campaign, didn't overspend their resources, inspired millions of Americans to get involved and built a "ground game" unmatched in any recent political history. Has a history of uniting people for good causes and working to get things DONE. This is the kind of person you want running the country. Who relied on smear tactics, outright lites, attracting fringe people yelling death threats at his rallies? Does this ring any bells, this person campaigned the same way George Bush did, he will BE George Bush if he gets in, surrounding himself with "yes" men and will blow his cork anytime anyone disagrees with him, George Bush, do you really want the country to continue down that road?

We can disagree here without calling eachother names too ya know. As for how is business doing, I haven't seen it fall off but ,believe me we haven't even been hit with the worst of it yet, people are still losing their jobs, banks are still sitting on their money, bad times are going to hit soon, especially if McBush gets in using his total admitted lack of knowledge on the economy, his agenda is the same as Bush's, benefit the corporations and his rich buddies, you and me are no concern of his......he doesn't care about small businesses and the mess we are IN is the result of the "trickle down theory," basically we're getting trickled on right now if you get my drift :-)

[David Schwab]

NO!! We don't. Education is this country has failed and contimually get's worse. The Postal system sucks. It'd be difficult to pick two worse examples of "good" socialism.

The reason it failed is because the government does not subsidize it the way they should. Same with the postal system. A good example of a stupid plan that does nothing is the No Child Left behind act. besides taking money away from schools, if you have kids and you read the forms you get for the NCLB act when your kid is in high school, one thing you have to sign is whether or not their grades and name will be giving to MILITARY RECRUITERS! So it's really a big ploy to keep passing kids until they get to HS, have lousy grades and no option for a higher education, so where do they go? The military.

And that's where your tax dollars are going under the current system. And we need to get rid of that system. McCain isn't going to change anything. He's another puppet like W is.

Get a clue, hurting rich people hurts everyone. I've never met a poor person that created jobs. Mr. Potato head? What's up with that? I thought liberals were supposed to be kind and considerate and that conservatives were mean spirited. You provide proof that that assumption is horse shit. Liberals are the most mean spirited and hateful people on the face of the earth. Thank you for showing it.

No one is hurting rich people! And explain whey they would hurt anyone else? You made a statement with no facts behind it. Why should they have tax breaks when that isn't fair? You know the old saying, the rich get rich, while the poor get poorer? My wife works for a not for profit which has many very rich supporters, and they are all for Obama!

Also you are making assumptions. Who said I'm liberal? And I don't need a clue. You are making knee jerk statements. Maybe I just don't like McCain. I have a right to not like someone. If you watch him speak, it's all rhetoric and calculated ploys. He goes into the whole patriotic thing. If you watch stupid FOX news, they said he had this new speech, which the Daily Show, showed it was the same old speech from 18 months ago!

Obama just talks like a person without being scripted. Do you want someone who can think without script writers, or some hollywood version of a president? I think the last 8 years should answer that!

As far as Biden being a professor, so what? Does he know his constitution? Than he knows how to subvert it.

So what? I'd rather have someone educated (and with an IQ higher than her shoe size) in office than some imbecile that hunts moose from a helicopter! Biden is a constitutional law professor.

Again, we DO have issues with those things. Public education is a failure, we have some of the most poorly educated students in the world. The farther we get from local control and financing of education the worse it gets. The more unionized the teachers get the worse education gets. Public retirement? You mean Social Security? That trust fund that has sucked so much of my income my entire working life but will be broke an gone before I ever reach retirement age? Yeah, great example of socialism there buddy. Socialist banking, you mean like the government just spending almost a trillion dollars of public money on bad dept and a failing industry? Another great example. Thank you very much.

And the reasons for these problems is the greedy powers that have things all set up the way they want. We need to dismantle that whole system.

Electing a socialist like Obama who will rubber stamp anything they push thru is crazy.

Where do you get the idea he's a socialist? Some of the stuff that the McCain team said he voted against, like tax cuts, was tax cuts for the rich, and an increase for the middle class! But they don't tell you that part, do they? You must be watching FOX news.

America is great not because it takes from other systems. It's great because of the design that was set forth by the founding fathers; because of their wisdom, and because of its conservatism. As it moves to the left it's greatness diminishes. Those that support leftist ideologies and ideologues hasten it's descent.

Amercia WAS great. Have you ever been out of the country? I'd rather live in Italy.

Also... I'm not left or right. I don't follow that stereotypical compartmentalized nonsense.

[madialex]

I just don't get why conservatives keep thinking that when we give big corp America breaks it will trickle down. Big Corp America has proven time and again that we give them tax breaks, change laws to suit them and what happens, they take the money and that's it, no change what so ever. Pardon me but Liberals are not stupid people who cant decipher what goes on with the whole conservative way of thinking.

Tell you how brain washed some of them are, I have a neighbor who is a contractor at NASA and she has been telling her son who plays with my son that if Obama gets in she is going to lose her job because he is going to cut funding, where she has heard this is news to me, Obama is about creating jobs and keeping the ones we have here in America. She also is telling this poor kid things like Obama runs a secret place in Iraq that takes real arms from babies and uses them for dolls. The Woman is nuts!! All this and a lot more I have personally heard the kid say right in front of me. Is she so desperate to vote mccain in that she feels the need to lie to her own son so he can be a Jr recruit for Mccain???

Take the Cable industry for example, remember all the bullshit we heard on tv from them saying de-regulation is better for all of us because it will create competiton in the cable industry and lower prices yadda yadda yadda, well I remember and like every other thing the Govt has done to give big corp USA a break it has not done one damn thing to help anybody but their wallets. Has anyone here seen your cable bill decrease in the last 20 years? Hell no you haven't. Mine has steadily gone up for 20 straight years. I paid 16.00 a month back then for basic cable, now I pay 60.00. Has there been any new cable companies in any of your areas since then, no, just a bigger monopoly company..... Don't feed me your trickle down bullshit, I don't believe a word of it. Tell another wealthy guy, they may believe it since they will probably be on the receiving end of the trickle down I sure as hell wont be......

[Possum]

...

The reason I pushed this into a political discussion, now, is there's only two days left so this won't get into a big forum fight, and secondly I'm addressing this to the PICKUP MAKERS, we are all small business people and who wins directly affects our lives more than anybody. I can't afford health insurance. Under Obama I'll be eligible for the same plan he has access to. I just read McCain's "health plan" on his website, there is NOTHING there :-) All it says is he'll encourage Americans to have "choices" by encouraging competition in the medical industry, WHAT???? This is already what exists!!!! A $5,000 "credit?" YOU have to come up with the $5,000, where am I going to get that, and where am I going to get the OTHER $5,000 or more to cover my wife and I? His "plan" is all doublespeak. This is how Bush has operated since day one, "no child left behind" which leaves mostly the children of the poor behind, "the blues skies initiative" which allows MORE pollution not less. Did you notice yesterday that Bush issued a bunch of executive legislative bills that CAN'T BE OPPOSED, so allow more pollution in the air and more poison in water and God only knows what else? This is what he and McCain are all about, suck the country dry and relax environmental laws so the rich corporations can pollute and suck every dime out of us they can before his term ends.

McCain has been there for 8 years, he's always been part of the problem, now we're supposed to believe his shallow stolen slogan from the Obama campaign of "change." Rolling Stone magazine, buried somewhere on their website did a really in-depth article on McCain's character and history and he's not a good guy to be running the country especially now. He has a "daddy" problem, all the male members in his clan were big achievers and movers, and John was always a fuck up, his military career was a joke, always got special priveleges because of his father's status. In short he has a big chip on his shoulder the same as George W. does, this is his last chance to prove himself to his paternal past, and he'll do anything to get power.

He never gave a crap about religion until this campaign year, notice how early on he always talked about "praying" for this and that, trying to get the Christian rightwingers on board, now he's got Palin for that. This guy doesn't give a darn about religion, he never has. And Palin, how do you put any trust in a guy who choses Palin to be potential president should he drop dead some day? Its on record he only talked to her for about 3 hours before making his choice. If you watched his biography on CNN you know he has a huge weakness for a pretty face. He left his first wife because she was in a car accident and couldn't get around much so she got fat, and he cheated on her as he did his other wives. He lied to his best and closest friends about that, he's no stranger to bending the truth to suit his needs. I don't care what party he is from, he's a bad choice.....by his own admission in his own biography he reacts too quickly and angrily to situations. I read that as sign yer kids up for military school so they'll be able to survive the coming draft when he gets his own war. Believe me if there's another conflict there's going to be a draft, our military is burnt out, their equipment is falling apart, which brings up McCain's record on support for veterans. He was given a "D" by veterans groups recently and the Los Angeles Times has an excellent article on what his actions are in the legislative record concerning veterans. Basically they hate the guy if you dig around enough vet websites....

[hasserl]

Sometimes my dear fellow citizens on the right can sound a little acerbic and bitter.
Pray tell hasserl, what are you so bitter about, there must be a story in there.

Trust me when I say nobody likes taxes. It's just that Republicans tend to favor spending my tax money on aggrandizing a massive military which they then insist on using for dubious purposes. How about that Missile defense system in Alaska waiting to end off an attack? Do you actually think for a second that it's going to work now that we've all spent the billions for it? How is it supposed to stop the disgruntled human from packing a suitcase with nuclear waste and plastic explosives and dropping it off in a parking garage near you?
How do you feel about the 650,000 Iraqi civilians who've met a violent and premature demise so that we can all feel so much safer here. Did it ever occur to Republicans that there are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, that we might just be outnumbered and that we don't actually have the resource base to just kill them all? We've done a really good job pissing on them the lst 6 years. That's just brilliant! Well you'd better go sign your kids up for another 4 wars buddy.

What I'm bitter about is a guy posts a thread asking about the well being of "friends" on an internet board, and others take the opportunity to spew their leftist blather. I'm so sick and tired of hearing it from every direction for so many months now, do you really have to spew it here too?

Re military spending, I'd rather not spend any money on a military, if we didn't need it. I'm of the opinion that we do, and I think history supports that. You may disagree, whatever. But of the many things the federal government is involved in spending money on, military protection of this country is one of the few legitimate or enumerated powers.

Regarding the Iraqi people that have died as a result of the US led military action there, the number you cited is but one, there is plenty of conflicting information, with the Iraq Body Count stating less than 97,000 http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Regardless, what does that really mean? How about the death of Iraqi people due to the Hussien regime? How about over 600,000 civilian executions? How about between 70 - 125 civilian deaths for every day of Hussien's 8,000 odd days in power? Do you care about that?

I'm not a Republican, so was the statement about 1.2 billion Muslims directed at me, or just rhetorical?

As far as another 4 wars, whatever it takes. I suppose you could have your kids go bury their heads in the sand and pretend that the Muslim cleric with the sword at the back of his neck is not real. I'd rather arm my kids and teach them how to defend themselves, their family and their country. That's OK, some people are willing to let others do the dirty work for them meanwhile sitting home in their comfy chair and spouting rhetoric on an internet bbs.

How did this get to be about war anyway? It was a simple question, are you all OK?

[gilligan]

Woa!

I had no idea there were so many people here without a clue!
This is a pickup making forum, keep your politics to yourself. You won't settle anything, just piss people off! Just vote and shut up, geese. I hope you get what you deserve!
Ron

[DrStrangelove]

Gentlemen: kindly STFU.

Life sucks, we're all going to die,
and will be reincarnated as anal parasites
in loathesome carrion-eating mammals.

Yes, everything is just awful.

Please, for the second time, no more political talk here.

My third post in this thread will herald its closing.

-drh

[hasserl]

The reason it failed is because the government does not subsidize it the way they should. Same with the postal system. A good example of a stupid plan that does nothing is the No Child Left behind act. besides taking money away from schools, if you have kids and you read the forms you get for the NCLB act when your kid is in high school, one thing you have to sign is whether or not their grades and name will be giving to MILITARY RECRUITERS! So it's really a big ploy to keep passing kids until they get to HS, have lousy grades and no option for a higher education, so where do they go? The military.

It's been shown many times that money does not equate to success in education. Some of the most highly funded schools are thew worst performing, and some of the most poorly funded schools are the highest performing. The blather about school funding is just that, blather spewed by teachers unions that are only interested in protecting and inflating their paycheck, not in actually educating the children, but instead indoctrinating them in leftist ideologies.

No one is hurting rich people! And explain whey they would hurt anyone else? You made a statement with no facts behind it. Why should they have tax breaks when that isn't fair? You know the old saying, the rich get rich, while the poor get poorer? My wife works for a not for profit which has many very rich supporters, and they are all for Obama!

YOU are the one that said "Obama's tax reforms will hurt rich people like him" LIke I said, Get A Clue. It's rich people that provide jobs and economic activity that benefits everyone. Your statement about fairness of tax breaks shows ignorance of the facts. The top 10% of tax payers in the US pay 70% of the taxes collected. But what's more important is that by increasing taxes on "the rich" (as if that's not an arbitrary term) you harm everyone by causing a decrease in economic activity. It also causes a decrease in total tax revenue collected because of the decreased economic activity. The fact is tax revenues increased AS A RESULT of the so called "Bush" tax cuts. But if you think "poor" people are getting the short shift in taxes, I'm all for cutting taxes for them too. Cut them all, I'd love it. I never met a tax cut I didn't like. Eliminate them all, go for it. But somehow I don't think you'd go for that. It's not about fairness afterall, it's about class envy. You want to stick it to the rich guys. Envy is an ugly thing.

Also you are making assumptions. Who said I'm liberal?

I did, based on your statements. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a real good chance it IS a duck.

Obama just talks like a person without being scripted. Do you want someone who can think without script writers, or some hollywood version of a president? I think the last 8 years should answer that!

Obama is VERY scripted, he's a telepromtper kind of guy. Away from the teleprompter he sounds like an idiot. It was when he was away from the teleprompter that he let slip the "spread the wealth around" statement, his true philosophy. His handlers NEVER would have allowed that to be in a speech. And I'm sure they crapped their pants when they heard the clip themselves.

So what? I'd rather have someone educated (and with an IQ higher than her shoe size) in office than some imbecile that hunts moose from a helicopter!

More of the infamous Liberal compassion I see. Ad hominem attacks, the Liberals main method of debate.

Amercia WAS great. Have you ever been out of the country? I'd rather live in Italy.

See, you are anti American. Don't be shy about it, it's the natural position for a Liberal. If you'd rather live in Italy, please go. What's stopping you? Please don't try to change our country to fit your warped political philosophy, go join with others that already share your ideals. But I'm not so sure the Italians would have you. Europe seems to be making a move to the right. Too many years of liberalism will do that to you.

[David Schwab]

As far as another 4 wars, whatever it takes.

What ever it takes for what?? You are buying into all that crap. Whenever we wage a "war" against something, such as the "war on terror" the "war on drugs", "war on hunger", we aren't going to win. It's negative energy being deployed. Mother Teresa once said: "I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."

Or do you not like Obama because he has a Muslim name, and he has brown skin?

My brother (also a professor) recently sent out a great email:

My Dear Friends, I've been thinking about a conversation I recently had about the upcoming presidential election. I do not mean to lecture you, but I feel an enormous urge to share my feelings with all of you.

I used to think of myself as a liberal, but as time went by we liberals became identified with "political correctness," "femi-natzis," supporters of the welfare state, government giveaways, and so forth. All are inaccurate and unfair definitions, but they have taken a toll on public thought. Now, at best I identify with the "progressive" label. And we are at a point where the choices seem to suggest that our current course is incompatible with human progress, political or otherwise.

And there's one label that we all need to be aware of.

I have come to realize that most of the people governing our country and probably most other nations are sick. They can be quite accurately be labeled as "sociopaths." That's an extreme statement, I know, but it seems totally valid to me. (For a reference to my thinking I recommend The Sociopath Next-door by Martha Stout. Stout estimates that one in twenty-five people are sociopaths. That's 4% of the population!)

The people that rise to power, historically, have been of this definition: self interested people, people, incapable of feeling true compassion and empathy for others. In addition, they often experience glee when learning of the failures and suffering of others. Their main means of winning others over and convincing them that they are other then they are, is personal "charm." They must represent themselves as likable compassionate people, when in reality they are devoid of the attributes that most of us feel separates us from predatory animals. To this end they use lies and deceit. When you add these attributes together, it perfectly describes our typical political leaders.

I do not think that McCain or Obama are sociopaths. But current events have shown that the republican political machine behind McCain is full of them: G. W. Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Crystal and many, many others, most especially the CEOs of various oil companies and banking institutions behind McCain, are dangerous sick entities whose continuing influence on the world stage can best be measured in human suffering and death.

There is no logical reason for our armies being deployed in Iraq. We are there as the result of a number of people who share this pathology. They put monitory gain and extremist ideology over the well-being of their fellow homo sapiens. They enjoy the upward slanting profits chart and the ever increasing numbers of "enemy dead," numbers that translate directly to human suffering. They enjoy wealth and all the special privileges that come with it, while our fellow human beings suffer as a direct result of their daily decisions.

Obama is not the antidote to this sad human fact. My guess is human beings at this time, on this planet, can expect little more. I also think that given the choice of voting for someone who will easily be manipulated by the neo-con sickos amongst us, McCain is a poor choice. Will Obama be better?

There is at least a chance. I have a gut feeling that he will attempt to walk a path that will lead toward less suffering. The most powerful, successful people in our nation have nothing but disdain for the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. Corporate profits, and personal wealth are the gods of their cult. Few amongst us will take to heart the admonition of Thomas Jefferson when he said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." But personal sacrifice may be all we have left.

I truly believe that McCain will be totally ineffectual at holding back the sick, greedy entities that populate our major corporations and financial institutions. He will be their enabler. The Milton Freedman school of economics, the thinking behind our current financial crisis, is thought of as still valid to these narrow minded sick profiteers. McCain has repeatedly endorsed this pathological, inhumane philosophy.

Obama may not be much better. But that word "may" contains enough hope for me to cast my vote his way.

Peace and love,

Doug

That's my last word on this, and Tuesday should show where we stand. Then we can come back in 4 years and see how we did.

As far as us all staying friends... I don't always agree with my friends on every topic, but they respect my views as I do theirs, and that includes me telling them why I don't agree with them!

Now let's all sell some pickups!

[Possum]

...

My point was, its time to vote, think hard about who you are voting for, don't rely on campaign slogans or that the other guy is a "terrorist" or listen to smears. Use your BRAIN, do RESEARCH, don't make a choice based on fear or lack of information. Both candidates websites have their programs and their stance. OUR businesses are directly affected by what happens on tuesday. There's a tsunami headed our way thats going to affect everyone, who is in power will decide what happens next. I think a highly educated cool head is in order and a break away from the past administration and moving forward in a bi-partisan "America first" way is whats needed. END OF THREAD.

[David Schwab]

OK.. I just saw this so it's not my last word...

Socialized medicine a good thing? Holy friggin' cow. How misguided you are. If you all like socialism so much, you really should consider moving to Canada or some such place to have a real taste of it.

So you LIKE paying a small fortune for medical care and insurance? How is that a good thing? Do you realize how many people don't have medical insurance in this very wealthy country? When I got laid off from my last job after being there for 8 years, I was given the option to continue the really poor Empire Blue Shield insurance they had, for $1,200 a MONTH!

You think that's normal?

This country has the resources to take care of their people... just like in Canada, the UK, France, Spain, Cuba, Italy, and so on. Those citizens, and even non citizens do not pay one cent for health care, and they can choose what ever doctor they want. They have lost no freedoms, except the freedom not to be fleeced by an insurance company! The doctors get paid very well too. Every notice how not all doctors here take all the insurance? Why is that? Because it's a pain in the butt! The doctors here make less money.

A taste of it? Sure. My wife lived in Spain and Italy for a few years each. She has asthma, and never had to pay a doctor, and paid a few dollars for meds. She got much better care than she ever got here. So she got a good taste of it, and hates the system in this country. We pay more taxes here too. For what in return?

Now in this great and rich country, with her new insurance from a new executive position job, she has to wait six months before they will cover her because her asthma and eye problems are a pre-existing condition! So she could die, and that would be fine with them. They are not interested in your health.. just in YOUR money. The more claims they can deny, the better. So why are we paying them again?

And that's normal, huh? If you are worried about your freedoms, you should read the Patriot Act. You can be locked up with no access to a lawyer if you are part of a peaceful protest! Look it up if you don't believe me. So you just lost one of your constitutional rights. And who took that away from you? W did. And very quietly too.

Hey, if you're in a hurry to hand your money ... and freedom ... over to a bunch of elitist ass bags that don't give a S*&T about you or this country

We already did that with the last 2 elections. But you have to hand your money over to insurance companies and for healthcare right?

You deserve to have your children's futures turned to hopeless crap in your haste to turn over freedom for "socialized medicine" and every other social program under the sun.

At this rate your kids wont have any health insurance worth a damn, nor will they be able to afford a higher education. Heck, we almost went bankrupt as a nation! They money is there for social programs, but it's being funneled into the pockets of big corporations, and is not being any help to you or I. You are talking from a place of fear, not logic.

Other countries have proven that socialized medicine works. People get the healthcare they need, for free, and the doctors make a good living. It's a win/win situation. Explain to me how it is not.

Here's a real life example. My wife and I had a baby three years ago. We had insurance, except there were complications, and she was in the ICU for over a week. Then last year my wife had to go into the hospital for almost 2 weeks for asthma related problems. The the steroids they gave her caused to to lose most of the vision in one eye due to cataracts. So she had to have surgery. During this time I was laid off from my job, so while she was in the hospital, my insurance ran out.

In the end we had to file for bankruptcy because of the hospital bills that the insurance wouldn't cover, and some of those were wile I was covered, like after the baby when she was in ICU. They felt that was unneeded! She almost died. I used up my measly two weeks vacation and one week sick time to take care of the baby.

Is that freedom? Is that how this great country should work? Of course it isn't. And I made a good living too.

Meanwhile good friends of ours that live in Italy just had a baby. The husband is a native Italian, and his wife is a US citizen. They owed nothing to the hospital. They both got THREE MONTHS paid leave from work. They were able to buy a big house out in the country by Firenze. And no, they don't pay higher taxes, or make less money than here.

So, honestly, tell me how it's better here than there? It's not. That's a taste of socialized medicine. Our way sucks, period. When the money is taken from the insurance companies, we will have plenty to make it work, with no disruption to our economy.

First thing you'll lose are the tax breaks implemented about 10 years ago. Oh my, but I don't make more than $250,000 a year so I'm not affected. Ahhhhhhhh ... no. That's just the beginning too. Under Oshamas stated plan to "redistribute the wealth" in this country ... like Roosevelt before him ... your money isn't your money at all. It belongs to the "less fortunate" the "underprivileged", illegal aliens, homos, etc., etc, - you know - the "collective". Everyone is owed your money!!!!! Pay them now!!!!! WTF! Why wait for an election? Forrest Gump had it figure right. Stupid is as stupid does. Make it so on Tuesday.

That's not the case at all. I happen to live in a state/country/and city with VERY high taxes. There are very wealthy people living here. I would not be able to buy a house here. What do we get for that? Half the street lights don't work going down the road we live on, and it's a very busy street. They do a lousy job at snow removal. I can go on and on.

Homos? Are you a bigot? You sound like a bigot. You really don't like Obama because he's biracial do you? God forbid we have a black president! And why are the "underprivileged" underprivileged? There should be no poverty in this country. Think about it, and do some reading, because you are ill-informed.

The real issue is most governments, local and otherwise in this country have high levels of corruption. And also just plain lazy people making money off your tax dollars, while not doing squat, which is the same thing.

Here's a good example. There are high unemployment rates right now. When you collect unemployment insurance, most of that money was already taken from your paycheck as part of taxes. The rest is from your employer. But guess what? They tax your unemployment! That's crazy. It's almost as crazy as the government loaning itself money, and then charging interest on that loan! Then we have to borrow money from other countries!

Don't worry about if you are going to loose freedoms, because you don't have them to start with. You don't have the freedom to choose any doctor you want, unless you are wealthy, or have really good insurance. Insurance that you pay into, even if you don't need it. In Europe people get to save that money for their kid's future, or retirement. Do you or I? Of course not.

Worry about the imbeciles running things and taking all your money. And worry about bigots and other small minded people.

[David King]

It's amazing how much we actually do agree on.

[David Schwab]

It's been shown many times that money does not equate to success in education. Some of the most highly funded schools are thew worst performing, and some of the most poorly funded schools are the highest performing. The blather about school funding is just that, blather spewed by teachers unions that are only interested in protecting and inflating their paycheck, not in actually educating the children, but instead indoctrinating them in leftist ideologies.

It's been shown by whom? you know the old saying... "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". Are you a teacher? Do you work for the Board of Education? My wife was a teacher, but left because her paycheck was not inflated. My brother is a collage professor. I know many other teachers. Where I live has some of the highest performing schools in the country, and the teachers will tell you how the schools are under funded and how the NCLB act has hurt them. Stop reading crap and talk to some people who work in the field.

Before my wife was a teacher, she was in the finance field, working for Moody's Investors, and CitiGroup on Wall Street. Who needs a clue?

YOU are the one that said "Obama's tax reforms will hurt rich people like him" LIke I said, Get A Clue.

I don't need a clue, and you are misinformed. You are just repeating back BS you have heard from conservative morons. See below.

It's rich people that provide jobs and economic activity that benefits everyone.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. It's citizens that provide economic activity. Businesses provide jobs, not wealthy individuals. How many rich people do you know? We are friends with a few ... like Jean Strahan. She's rich. She has a huge mansion up the street. She doesn't provide anyone with jobs, no more than you or I if we need work done to your home. Poor logic there.

Your statement about fairness of tax breaks shows ignorance of the facts. The top 10% of tax payers in the US pay 70% of the taxes collected.

And that shows your naïvety. Your numbers are wrong as well, and please cite me a source. Let's look at some REAL facts:

"The richest 2% of adults in the world own more than half of all household wealth, according to a new study by a United Nations research institute." --BBC NEWS
______

"The most common measure used, and the most understandable is: what share of total wealth is owned by the richest households, typically the top 1 percent. In the United States, in the last survey year, 1998, the richest 1 percent of households owned 38 percent of all wealth.

This is the most easily understood measure.

There is also another measure called the Gini coefficient. It measures the concentration of wealth at different percentile levels, and does an overall computation. It is an index that goes from zero to one, one being the most unequal. Wealth inequality in the United States has a Gini coefficient of .82, which is pretty close to the maximum level of inequality you can have." -- Edward Wolff professor of economics at New York University.

The Wealth Divide - The Growing Gap in the United States - Between the Rich and the Rest
_________

"A study by the World Institute for Development Economics Research at United Nations University reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total. The bottom half of the world adult population owned barely 1% of global wealth. Extensive statistics, many indicating the growing world disparity, are included in the available report, press releases, Excel tables and Powerpoint slides. Moreover, another study found that the richest 2% own more than half of global household assets. Despite this, the distribution has been changing quite rapidly in the direction of greater concentration of wealth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth

But what's more important is that by increasing taxes on "the rich" (as if that's not an arbitrary term) you harm everyone by causing a decrease in economic activity.

You do nothing of the kind. You did not decrease their income. You just taxed them proportionally, the same proportion that people who are not rich pay. Because these wealthy people are already getting heavy tax breaks that you and I do not. The rest of the your statement does not agree with what the experts say.

It also causes a decrease in total tax revenue collected because of the decreased economic activity. The fact is tax revenues increased AS A RESULT of the so called "Bush" tax cuts. But if you think "poor" people are getting the short shift in taxes, I'm all for cutting taxes for them too. Cut them all, I'd love it. I never met a tax cut I didn't like. Eliminate them all, go for it. But somehow I don't think you'd go for that. It's not about fairness afterall, it's about class envy. You want to stick it to the rich guys. Envy is an ugly thing.

No, it's about removing the tax breaks the rich people have. They are not PAYING taxes for the most part. Don't you understand that? It' just about taking those tax shelters away. They wont starve. Honest.

I did, based on your statements. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a real good chance it IS a duck.

Well that means you prejudge people. You should think more and react less. I do not associate myself with any group, particularly liberals. I am a democrat though. You like to use all these dumb terms like "leftist" and stuff. The world is not black and white. If you cant understand what I'm saying you need to enlighten yourself.

Obama is VERY scripted, he's a telepromtper kind of guy. Away from the teleprompter he sounds like an idiot.

You are talking about Palin right? Show me one interview with Obama where he sounds like an idiot. You are just being contrary.

More of the infamous Liberal compassion I see. Ad hominem attacks, the Liberals main method of debate.

Whatever. More stereotype phrases, I see.

See, you are anti American. Don't be shy about it, it's the natural position for a Liberal. If you'd rather live in Italy, please go. What's stopping you? Please don't try to change our country to fit your warped political philosophy, go join with others that already share your ideals. But I'm not so sure the Italians would have you. Europe seems to be making a move to the right. Too many years of liberalism will do that to you.

My, aren't you defensive! Like someone took a dump on your lawn!

I am not anti American, but I am honest that things need changing. Do you think being patriotic means you act dumb and close your eyes to problems?

I have no warped political philosophy, but you sound like one of those militia people. You probably haven't been anywhere else, so you don't know any better. You listen to what other's tell you.

And here you go with the right/left bullshit again. Grow up, really. I live here because I was born here, and I like living here. And all my friends who live abroad think the same way about the US as I do. Most of the world thinks this way about the US. But you wouldn't know that, would you? My wife been to more places than I, including Russia. They ended up with the same situation we are headed. No middle class at all. Is that what you want?

As far as Europe, the EU basically made the US dollar worthless. They wont even accept US dollars in INDIA! And they still have socialized medicine. Seems they are doing something right.

But FUD rules.

[Spence]

Hey Guys
you guys alright? I hope you all are..
seems things are changing fast and belts are tightening -

Just hold station Don. People still spend money during hard times. Instead of buying new guitars, they upgrade their old ones.