the tone cap myth...

[Mike Sulzer]

Possum,

It is unclear what the conditions of your test are. With the tone pot on zero, the capacitor is right across the pickup and so you are listening directly to the cap. You should easily be able to hear the difference between .047 and .022; it is a very different frequency response. Ceramic capacitors can be really bad; the distortion is readily apparent on a scope if you put an ac voltage across them approaching their rating. Doesn't surprise me if it is audible at lower voltages. I have always avoided them for audio; some people use them in guitar amps because of the distortion!

But when you are talking about a brighter sound, I thought you might mean with the tone pot on 10. Then you have 500 Kohms in series with the cap impedance of about 2600 ohms (at 3000 Hz, near the peak of the brightness in a humbucker guitar). It is hard to believe there is any effect from the capacitor on the sound with that kind of isolation. I have never heard that, although I have only one reasonably good ear and one really bad one, so my sensitive A/B testing is in the past.

Anyway, I just wanted to find out better what it is you are hearing, since I am not as good at this stuff as i used to be.

Mike

[Possum]

....

Yes the difference I'm hearing is with the tone pot on 10, NOT turned back to darken up the pickup. The pickups sound much more lively, focused, and the high end is much more clear. This is probably a combination of a better cap and a value change, judging by what you guys are saying. I also don't think the "equivalent" cap at Mouser is going to sound the same, thats kind of like saying all strat pickups at 7K are going to sound the same or all 1018 steel you order is going to sound the same. The singlecoil.com caps are only $5 each and there isn't any import duties blah blah, you order them they ship them, you pay cost and postage thats all :-) Still, would be nice to find these at cost. I found a place in the US that lists them for sale in Burbank:
http://www.tawelectronics.com/wima_film_capacitors.htm
but not sure they actually have them in stock, I"m in the middle of a computer melt down and using my OSX 9 machine to post here....

[Possum]

.......

And yes of course these are .022uf the same as the bumble bee NOS caps, those are what was used in old vintage Les Pauls when PAFs were being used. Probably modern guitars use .047's because the pickups are cheap/shrill....

[Mike Sulzer]

Yes the difference I'm hearing is with the tone pot on 10, NOT turned back to darken up the pickup. The pickups sound much more lively, focused, and the high end is much more clear.

Thanks for the clarification. What you are describing sounds more like an open circuit (no connection to the capacitor) than a different capacitor.

[Possum]

....

See, this is my point....the "myth" that tone caps don't change your tone when they are supposedly aren't "in" the circuit. This is just wrong. The change was dramatic. I've never really experimented with swapping caps out before, and when I set these two guitars up I put the singlecoil.com caps in the Epiphone and left the Stellar with stock caps. My PAF set I'm working on is using authentic techniques and metals so the top end treble is different than stewmac or Allparts stuff, and reacts the same as my real PAFs. I started comparing the Stellar's pickups to the Epi's which has my PF Star set in it, which is using specific metals that do the same thing. The Epi just sounds more focused and alive and the Stellar has been frustratingly feeling disjointed, confused treble, and reacts badly in my Victoria. I've been banging my head against this for over two months of almost every day parts adjustments/changes and still hitting that same wall. The singlecoil.com caps solved the problem in one stroke. Is it the quality of the caps or the value change? I don't know, probably both. I know in my other guitar they sound exactly like real Bumble Bees. I've seen a post some time ago where a guy with an oscilloscope did a bunch of tests and proved that changing caps inhis guitar gave him measurable results on the scope.

The only cap swap I've done before this was the singlecoil.com caps for the NOS BB's, and since I heard no change just kinda figured this tone cap stuff was just some esoteric theory stuff only dogs could hear. Now I'm thinking if I can find these WIMA caps cheap enough I'll buy a bunch of them and include them with my PAF sets if the customer doesn't already have good tone caps in their guitar. I had a similar experience with pots and P90's. Those cheap mini-pots can really destroy your pickup's tone, putting a blanket over what they really sound like.....lesson learned....

[Possum]

.......

And yes of course these are .022uf the same as the bumble bee NOS caps, those are what was used in old vintage Les Pauls when PAFs were being used. Probably modern guitars use .047's because the pickups are cheap/shrill....

[belwar]

I had a tech tell me that most of the vintage LP's he worked on the pots were all over spec on the ones that sounded best, 550K-600K. I used Alpha pots from StewMac in this guitar and there were some around 550K in the batch I ordered, I used the higher ones in the neck and lower in the bridge. One of my customers also likes the Luxe caps too. Probably cheaper to buy the Russian caps without the fake shell, I see alot of them on Ebay but not sure which ones are good...

Im a big fan of the CTS 500k pots from RS Guitar Works. Roy has CTS make a pot for him which is different than the standard CTS 500k. This one is more durable and built to higher tolerances. The have a brass shaft with locking ring so its harder to ruin the pot. They are within 5% tolerance (rare for a pot) and generally measure between 540-560. They also have the most even volume taper I have seen to date - Fully usuable spectrum from 0-10. Roy designed the taper to match the CTS tone pots from WD Music, but those I dont much care for. I like the traditional 0686 allparts CTS pot for tone controls. The RS guitar works ones are 2-3 times the price, but I use them on all my guitars because they are that much better.

b.

[Steve A.]

See, this is my point....the "myth" that tone caps don't change your tone when they are supposedly aren't "in" the circuit. This is just wrong. The change was dramatic...

Well, they do have "no load" tone pots because a 0.022uF-0.047uF tone cap run through a 250k to 500k pot set to 10 will load down the signal noticeably. In many or most cases you do want the pickup loaded down with a tone cap since it usually mellows it out a bit. Although having a switchable no load option is great, too.

If and when you get in some WIMA caps let us know how they compare to the $5 ones from singlecoil.com- their statement that their caps just use WIMA cases could be total BS. Why did they happen to pick that particular case, since they could undoubtedly get a lot more money for their caps if they chose the Bumblebee case (like the Luxe caps)? My B.S. detector is beeping a little bit, although not screaming like a siren...

Steve Ahola

[orangedrop]

Jensen OIP caps is good too

I thought this was really old news. Ceramics suck in the guitar. Nobody mentions Jensen OIP caps though – I think they are really great. I tried many caps, including Hovland Musical. OD’s are not bad at all – and cheap.

() The way Dave described how he matched the value of the pots to each PU is the same way many boutique companies (RS) do it today and sell specialised “sets”. Very simple to fix your own specialised set without the extra cost if you have an LCR.

[orangedrop]

Jensen OIP caps is good too

I thought this was really old news. Ceramics suck (in the guitar - not in every amp).
Nobody mentions Jensen OIP caps though – I think they are really great. (I tried many caps, including Hovland Musical. OD’s are not bad at all – and cheap).

[hasserl]

Relating anecdotal experiences involving changes in capacitor VALUE as well as type is not much evidence to bust a myth. Experiences with different cap types in different guitars isn't either. Try using different cap types of the same value (measured) in the same guitar. It would be best if they could be switched quickly to reduce the effect of aural memory lapse, and even better if the switching was done by somone other than the player so that he doesn't know which cap is being used at the time. Now that would bust the "myth".

[soundmasterg]

Possum,

$5 per cap is pricey.....I would bet they just use a special case on their WIMA caps and if you order the same model of WIMA cap in the same value, it will sound mostly the same within tolerance. Lots of the caps are 5% tolderance, 10% tolerance, etc., and this will change the sound of course.

I've got some surplus WIMA caps around that I use for amp experiments...we could A/B them if you like. Mouser is a good and cheap source for caps btw.

Greg

[Possum]

....

I couldn't find anyone selling the WIMA caps, those specific ones, Mouser doesn't even list film caps in their catalog, yeah $5 is alot but they do sound identical to NOS bumble bees.....

[David Schwab]

Mouser doesn't even list film caps in their catalog

Sure they do. I just got the new catalog today in the mail, all 2,158 pages! These things are like phone books!

Anyway, looking in the index, it has "Capacitors, Film: Axial 822, 830-832, 838-839..." and so on.

Orange drops are on page 833. Metallized Poly Film caps are on 832. WIMA starts on 834.

Orange Drops are about $1.30.

This is in the 2009 Catalog. I already chucked the old one in the recycling bin.

It's harder to find things looking a the PDF's.

[Possum]

....

Actually this DOES blow the myth out of the water, because supposedly when you're not using your tone control the cap should have no effect right? So why would changing the value have any effect at all, then, if its "not in the circuit." I almost never use the tone control, yet changing the caps changed the the pickups tone for the better.

OK, I do see WIMA in the Mouse catalog now but mine is 2008 you must have just gotten yours. What page guitar strings on?