The importance of magnets?

[mark]

Okay the pickup needs magnets to work, but I was talking to a local winder who claimed that if he rewound a SD strat pickup, it would still sound like an SD pickup because of the type of magnets SD chooses to use.

Personally I can't see how that could be so?

Of course there is another winder who reckon Leo used whatever he could get.

What are the thoughts of the group on this one?

Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott

[madialex]

Well Unless he winds exactly like Seymour I don't see it sounding like Seymour's. I think if he has an automatic winder and he programs it just like Seymour's then maybe, but hand winding, I highly doubt it...

[MattT]

Hi Mark,
I've only done amatuer magnet swapping but imo they make a big difference. Just swapping one magnet for another can change the tone very significantly. When I swapped the same type/size from the same vendor they sounded pretty much the same but even the same type that was a different size and from a different vendor sounded different. For example, the difference between a Gibson sand cast A5 and a 'regular' A5 (whatever you call it...looks like 'brushed' metal) from DiMarzio sounded totally different.

I dunno any real details of the winds in the pickups I tested them in...just that they were sold as 'PAF-types' and measured in that ballpark in DC resistance.

[SK66]

A. It might sound the same, but not because of just the magnets.
B. I agree, Leo used what he could get....But there WAS a design "standard" that was preferred.

[Possum]

...

Ahem, you mean "that" SD, okay....
Well the magnets in that bobbin are going to highly flavor the results and you're stuck with it. But those pickups are probably wound on a computerized machine and does one kind of wind. If you rewind it and hand wind it its going to sound noticeably different because you have a random scatter versus a repeated controlled scatter. I"ve been doing alot of magnet swapping my test buckers these days and I can tell you every manufacturer's wares sound completelely different than their competition. I have some alnico 3 for instance that sounds real dark and syrupy and some A3 from another source that sounds real bright and snappy. I can just about tell you what to expect from each supplier with what alnico at this point, they are all different. Magnets are super important and need to be tailored by what grade and what supplier to what pickup...

[black_labb]

sorry to derail this a bit, but has anyone experemented a bit with using ceramic mags with steel/other metal pieces ontop of the cermic magnet to effect inductance and provide a conductor? it could probably do some nice in between sounds. would be a good thing for those companies that do more budget instruments to research, as it would probably greatly improve budget instruments.

[David Schwab]

sorry to derail this a bit, but has anyone experemented a bit with using ceramic mags with steel/other metal pieces ontop of the cermic magnet to effect inductance and provide a conductor? it could probably do some nice in between sounds. would be a good thing for those companies that do more budget instruments to research, as it would probably greatly improve budget instruments.

Well when you use ceramic mags you also use steel poles. The "cheap" Fender pickups are made that way. I guess if you used ceramic rod magnets you could add a steel pole tip to increase inductance. I've never seen a pickups with ceramic rod magnets, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Burns Tri-Sonics use a ceramic magnet in the middle of the coil, and a steel plate on the bottom of the pickup. Some Hayman/Shergold guitars with single coil pickups had a steel plate connecting the bottom of all three pickups. There is a lot of stuff to try once you leave Fender/Gibson land.

I remember that Mike Sulzer made some pickups with non magnetized ferrite rods with small neo magnets. Maybe he'll chime in and give some details.

[black_labb]

Well when you use ceramic mags you also use steel poles. The "cheap" Fender pickups are made that way. I guess if you used ceramic rod magnets you could add a steel pole tip to increase inductance. I've never seen a pickups with ceramic rod magnets, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Burns Tri-Sonics use a ceramic magnet in the middle of the coil, and a steel plate on the bottom of the pickup. Some Hayman/Shergold guitars with single coil pickups had a steel plate connecting the bottom of all three pickups. There is a lot of stuff to try once you leave Fender/Gibson land.

I remember that Mike Sulzer made some pickups with non magnetized ferrite rods with small neo magnets. Maybe he'll chime in and give some details.

i was more refering to humbuckers, but it would also work for the cheap fender style pickups.

[David Schwab]

Humbuckers already have steel poles, and many have ceramic magnets.

But sure, you could use ceramic rods, etc.

[black_labb]

Humbuckers already have steel poles, and many have ceramic magnets.

But sure, you could use ceramic rods, etc.

sorry, should clarify. i mean for a steel/metal piece of sheet metal on top of the ceramic magnet in a humbucker, touching the poles as if it was part of the magnet.
imagine an alnico magnet as having 2 jobs 1-a magnetic force and 2-creating inductance and conducting electricity. ceramic magnets only do 1. adding some sheet metal it will effect inductance and conduct (not sure if its much of an effect, but it does something). this would make them (or the assembly really) act more like an alnico.

it wouldnt be the same as alnico, but it would make a difference.

[David Schwab]

sorry, should clarify. i mean for a steel/metal piece of sheet metal on top of the ceramic magnet in a humbucker, touching the poles as if it was part of the magnet.

That would short out the magnetic circuit. You can try it by sticking a piece of steel on the top of the pickup touching the poles. You won't get much sound that way. The steel would act as a return for the magnetic field.

imagine an alnico magnet as having 2 jobs 1-a magnetic force and 2-creating inductance and conducting electricity. ceramic magnets only do 1. adding some sheet metal it will effect inductance and conduct (not sure if its much of an effect, but it does something). this would make them (or the assembly really) act more like an alnico.

You can put a piece of steel between the ceramic magnet and the poles, like a spacer, but you cant bridge the magnet with the steel.

More steel will change the inductance, but not the magnetic properties of the ceramic magnet.

[mark]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm wondering how does the source of vintage magnets vary from what is offered these days. The other question is how do you quantify why these magnets sound differently?
There has to be a logical explanation.

I'm wondering why is it the CBS pickups sounded so ordinary, was it the wind or the magnets?

Thanks again for all your assistance.

Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott

[David Schwab]

There was a thread about that once... the magnets are a bit different, and so is the steel parts used in the PAF's. And the wire is different too.