How to record a pickup to a computer?

[belwar]

Does anyone have a recomendation as to how to record a pickup sample? I'm more of a guitar builder than a player. I've never recorded anything in my life. For me its just plug a guitar into an amp and go for recreational use. I know SQUAT about amplifiers.

How can one record a pickup sample? Do you go from the guitar to a PC sound card? Do you mic an amp and then into a sound card? I dont even know where to start. I've got what I think is a pretty good sounding humbucker and I want to record it to get some feedback from people.

I have a Line 6 Bogner Amp, and a vintage 60's Super reverb to work with, and some modern fender acoustic amp. I think I also have an ultrasound acoustic amp too - cant remember. I have above average PC knowledge (and below average spelling capabilities!)

I would love to know what equipment Im going to need, and if there is any standards that are considered "must use", and what styles of playing I should record to get a good picture of the sound.

[Possum]

...

Well, having spent the last 7 months of my life doing nothing but sound samples, I'll give you my take on it. All the audio samples on my website were done with a stereo powered video camera mic into a minidisc player, or straight into my Mac. I put the mic maybe 6 feet from the amp.

In doing comparison samples of my new PAF set I bought an SM57 Shure and started close mic'ing the amp, right up against the grille, angled towards the voice coil but not directly in front of it either. Most of my testing was done that way. Basically recording the way some studios do.

I thought I was done with my set and had picked the best version of the pickups/parts/secret mystery sauce. Then I did a video for YouTube and asked a couple people to look at it. Right away they pointed out some serious differences between my real PAFs and my set and shit if they weren't right The audio was recorded on the camera at a distance of about 10-12 feet aimed right at the amp. Astonishingly this turned out to be the best way to "hear" the pickups, in a more real life-like situation. I just dump the video through fire-wire to my Mac and edit the videos.

The direct mic'd stuff was useful but doesn't represent what guitar players are going to actually hear when they play your pickups. Recording in a room, in front of the amp you can hear what an audience member will hear, some stuff I could hear this way that close-mic'ing didn't show up.

Plugging your guitar direct into your computer is a big mistake, using a Line6 POD is a big mistake, neither one represent anything real. You can make your pickups sound real good using a POD or something similar, but your customers will hate you because what you send them won't sound like your sound samples. The samples need to be mic'd from a real amp, not a simulation.

So, in retrospect, my cheesy way of recording to mini-disc with a quality powered mic at a distance from the amp worked real well, and I've never had anyone tell me my pickups don't sound like my audio files. Keep it simple, keep it real, use a good tube amp like a real Deluxe Reverb (no reissues...) or Vibrolux, Super etc., plug straight into the amp, use a good quality cord, use the same cord every time, use the same amp settings, keep the mic in the same spot everytime. You can record to your computer or buy a small hard disk recorder, use a good stereo mic.....

[Chadheckler1]

Cool topic. I am also thinking about making some samples soon.

I think Possum is onto the right path using the stereo mic and placing it farther away from the cab in order to accurately demo how the pickup will sound to the listener that is in the room with the player...

...but, there is something to be said about using an actual studio mic setup directly on the speaker if the person wants to hear what the pickups would sound like in the "studio".

In the end, I think both methods are fine as long as the listener is educated on the differences between the two (Always going to be a question) and they know which method was used for that particular recording...and you use the same exact setup every time.

[David Schwab]

Here's my take on it based on the fact that I mostly do recoding direct, and have for the past 25+ years. I have a small Crate amp which sounds good, but I get much better results direct than from mic'ing the amp.

I plug into a Roland digital mixer which has a Hi-Z guitar input. It has amp modeling like a Pod. With careful tweaking I'm able to get a good recorded guitar sound. Plus I can choose amp types... I can do a clean or crunchy Twin, or a super saturated stack. I can also change speaker cabs, mics and even the mic angle. And I don't annoy the neighbors!

I respectfully disagree with Possum, as plugging into an amp and mic'ing it is akin to plugging into a Pod or other amp modeler. It's doing the same thing to the signal. As far as the real world, there are many recordings done with Pods these days, so it is the tone people are used to hearing. The trick is getting a good sound programed, as the presets it comes with are pretty bad.

You certainly can't tell the difference in my recordings done with the modeler than if I had mic'ed up an amp.

I was recoding my bass pickup samples direct and totally flat in the beginning, because I wanted to show off just the tone of the pickups. But people couldn't tell what they would sound like though an amp, or with normal EQ that might be used, so now I produce samples that better reflect a real recording of the bass in a normal situation. And no one wants to hear guitar direct and naked.

The trick of getting a good recorded tone while still hearing the pickups with guitar is to not use too much gain or distortion, as that masks the tone. But you do want people to hear how they will sound in those situations, so probably some clean and dirty clips are the way to go. But a Pod or other amp modeler wont make bad pickups sound good. It will just make them sound mediocre.

Every guitar and amp combination sounds different, so you can never really show what a pickup will sound like. Just get a tone you like from the Line6 amp and go with that. Set some speaker modeling and use the DI out.

[Dave Kerr]

I have a small Crate amp which sounds good, but I get much better results direct than from mic'ing the amp..

David, it seems the above contradicts the below, unless I'm missing something. "Better" is a subjective term, but whether better or worse, it's certainly different, no?

You certainly can't tell the difference in my recordings done with the modeler than if I had mic'ed up an amp...

[JGundry]

Buy a high quality pocket digital recorder with on board stereo mics. I have an Edirol R09 and love it. Zoom makes one that is cheaper that is apparently very good also. I researched it about a year ago so there are probably better recorders for the same money by other makers at this point. You will end up with a high quality WAV. file that you can turn into an MP3 to post on the internet. Place it 6-10 feet away from the amp to get some room ambiance.

I did this clip of my band playing during practice with the RO9 sitting in the middle of the room. Considering this is only recorded with the on board mics and with just a touch of reverb added in itunes I think the recording quality is amazingly good. The playing is a different matter entirely though, we are not pros as you can tell.

http://gundrymedia.typepad.com/upsta..._my_baby_7.mp3

[David Schwab]

David, it seems the above contradicts the below, unless I'm missing something. "Better" is a subjective term, but whether better or worse, it's certainly different, no?

OK, when I say a mic'd up amp, I'm not referring to the little Crate amp. I'm talking about comparing it to recordings done in pro studios with amps.

The Crate sounds thin and wheezy close mic'd with a SM57 or my modded Oktava MK-319. Probably because it has 2X6" speakers.

[StarryNight]

I'm of the mind that pickup samples should be recorded as would a guitar during any session. Either a mic'ed amp or direct will produce good results. A good mic preamp with a little compression and the best possible AD converter are the staples. When recording overdriven tones my preference is a tube amp with a mic close to the speaker but there are so many factors when recording this way i.e. type of amp, volume, the room and surrounding acoustics. I'm not fond of PODs myself but i'm not big on any digital processors. the best result i've had going direct is using Amplitube. There are some decent amp and overdriven sounds. It still is important that the preamp and converter is as good as possible. I know the arguement is that eventually it ends up squashed as an mp3 so it doesn't matter how it's recorded but I don't agree. Within reason, a properly recorded guitar can sound good at any bit rate.

[Possum]

...

I disagree about PODs. I have a Johnson I think its called and have messed with PODs, they are only good for real clean stuff or super distortion, I've never heard one that could mimic a tweed Fender tone. They are a processor not an amp. Plugging straight into your computer is like plugging into your stereo system, its not a guitar amp and doesn't respond like a guitar amp. Maybe those two ways work for bass guitar players but not for guitarists. Sure you can use a POD or digital emulator to do recordings in your home studio and get some nice tones, but when you play a gig do you take your POD to the gig? NO Direct mic'ing your amp works better if you're mixing that into a track with a full band, it does sound good by itself but its not what the audience hears when you throw in room ambience, smoky air, and human bodies and furniture in a room. So it depends on what you are going to use your recordings for. If you are demo'ing your pickups to sell as a product, use a stereo mic set up where a listener would stand. In 7 years no one has said my clips don't sound like my product, but customers tell me they've bought from other makers and were disappointed that the pups didn't sound like what they heard on their website. Keep it simple...

[David Schwab]

I disagree about PODs. I have a Johnson I think its called and have messed with PODs, they are only good for real clean stuff or super distortion, I've never heard one that could mimic a tweed Fender tone.

It's a Johnson J-Station. I never tried one, but they were supposed to be good. Getting that in-between crunch tone is hard, but the newer modeling stuff, especially the computer plugins like Amplitube can do it.

I'm not a Pod fan, but I do like the Roland COSM modeling products.

They are a processor not an amp. Plugging straight into your computer is like plugging into your stereo system, its not a guitar amp and doesn't respond like a guitar amp.

Well your amp is a processor, and things like Pods are imitating amps and speakers. You aren't going to listen to the clips though an amp right? You are going to listen though a stereo system. Just as you don't want to plug directly into your computer, you also don't plug directly into a powere amp. The preamp is your processor... it adds gain and EQ and in the case of most guitar amps, some form of harmonic distortion. That's what stops the guitar from sounding lifeless. These days you can add all the same stuff with processors.

Digidesign has an amp plugin that is very convincing. They went piece by piece though a bunch of vintage amps and speakers and modeled everything. They can get the tone of a Twin just starting to break up. I listened to a demo and you couldn't tell they weren't a bunch of vintage and modern amps.

Maybe those two ways work for bass guitar players but not for guitarists. Sure you can use a POD or digital emulator to do recordings in your home studio and get some nice tones, but when you play a gig do you take your POD to the gig?

Dave, you have to get out more. A lot of guitarist use Pods live, as well as GuitarRig, which is another modeler. Then there are the modeling amps like the Line6 combos, and Roland has a bunch of modeling processors.

I've played with quite a few guitarist that used a Pod or even a PowerBook as their main "amp" and then ran that into the PA or had a powered PA cab.

Plus many of the recordings you hear these days are done by recording the guitar direct with no effects at all, and then "re-amping" the tracks either though amps or plugins or both. As long as you get your tone, who cares how it's done?

Direct mic'ing your amp works better if you're mixing that into a track with a full band, it does sound good by itself but its not what the audience hears when you throw in room ambience, smoky air, and human bodies and furniture in a room.

But if you introduce a room into the recording, then they only know what the pickup sounds like in that room! Also what about the listener's room? That's adding to the whole thing. I get annoyed when there's a demo on YouTube and they are picking up all the room sound. because it wont sound that way with you sitting there. Your ears don't work that way. That's why on classical recordings they also close mic featured instruments, because the recording captures all the room ambiance but if you were there you can focus on certain sounds... just like if you are in a noisy club and you are having a conversation with someone. If you record that conversation, you wont be able to discriminate between the conversation and the background noise! So you have to fake it. All records fake the space they are in because that's the only way to have any control. Reflections from a room can sound good, but they can also filter out certain frequencies.

The bottom line is unless they have the guitar in hand trying out your pickups through their amp, they are only listening to a recording. Therefore any good recording that sounds like what people are used to hearing will do.

It doesn't matter if I get a tone that this person either wont get, or might not want, because no two guitar players get the same sound out of the same guitar. But it gives you an idea of what to expect, and what you have to work with.

A real fun sound clip page is the Lakland audio page. Lakland make basses. In their clips they have various styles of music with a full band. I hadn't heard that done before, but it really gives you an idea of what kind of tones you can get and what types of music the bass would work with.

http://www.lakland.com/ac_j-sonic.htm

A poor example is Seymour Duncan's site. They play a goofy lick that doesn't tell you anything about what you might be able to do with the pickups.

[mkat]

Far out, I agree with Dave and Dave .

Just recently, I wanted to hear a sample of one of the Dark Star bass pickups. I was referred to the Lakland site for that, which do have some really good samples there as Dave mentioned. These gave me an end point, which was good.

However, what I also wanted to hear was the starting point, to hear what the pickup sounded like unprocessed. The Hammon Engineering site provided that sample, which was much less flattering let me tell you.

So, I did get a better idea of the possibilities comparing the two.

I think that those small pocket digital recorders as mentioned above are quite useful too, but I haven't heard the sound quality.

[Possum]

..

Dave, I'm a blues guy, if a guy shows up at a blues jam with a POD, its kinda like throwing a stink bomb in the room It'd be a sure sign the guy probably can't play. In about 8 years of attending blues jams I"ve only ever seen one POD show up and all he did was play alot of noise
I"m sorry, there ain't no digital device that can replicate any of my tube amps, they each have their own personality, and every guitar player that I admire out there wouldn't be caught dead with an imitation tone. These are the guys I make pickups for and who buy my pickups. I don't get much of the rock crowd, they are into pedal boards and digital stuff, thats fine for them; the most extreme sound clip I've done was to use a TubeScreamer for my pre-CBS strat set but thats the SRV guys, and honestly Stevie's tone was the worst when he was using that thing All that stuff to me is like using crutches, even the rock players I admire most never used that stuff, Peter Green, Beck, Allman, Page, Clapton. What more do you need than a great, simple tube amp cranked, and a guitar? I'm old school and probably always will be. I"ve seen some rock and jazz fusion guys try to play at blues jams without any pedal board or amped up gain pedal giving them huge sustain and its really embarrassing because suddenly they can't play at all :-) I saw this happen to a famous jazz fusion teacher, trying out a new guitar at a blues jam on someone else's amp, he couldn't play without his talent boxes being there and was so embarrassed he walked off stage because he wasn't getting any sustain. Shoulda took a lesson from Johnny Guitar Watson and played with his fingers and did something funky...

[David Schwab]

Dave, I don't totally disagree with you, but I'm pointing out that a lot of people get their tone from signal processing devices. Not for playing the blues, but for a lot of other styles of music.

I think another thing is you want to hear your pickups in a live situation, and I'm more of a studio guy. I think live sound sucks most of the time, so you never really know what your guitar sounds like unless you are in a quiet space with better acoustics, and a good amp or whatever. I can't tell what an instrument sounds like in these YouTube videos where they are using a room mic. I liked the clips you had on your website. I don't know how you recorded them, I'm assuming though an amp, but they sound good and get the point across. But I can get that same tone from my digital thing, and that was my point. Properly used it's a viable way to record guitar.

If you have access to a good amp and proper space to record it (along with the mics and recording equipment) then by all means that's the way to go.

I think the thing I don't like about Pods is the presets. Anything you buy with presets.. they are usually crap. In the hands of a talented player, they can get great tones from the thing. But most people just use the lame ass presets and none of them really fit anything you are playing. I played in a church band for a few years and the guitar player started bringing his Les Paul and a Pod. He didn't have any finesse anyway, and the Pod just compounded that!

But I've worked with another guy who used it to great advantage, and he also had one of those Line6 Variax modeling guitars. That was mostly for the acoustic tones, because the electric tones are totally generic.

I also don't care for those Sansamp things. I think they make everything sound like mush.

I like to play electric guitars unplugged a lot of the time. That's where you learn to get tones from your fingers. I'm a big fan of Jeff beck and Johnny Guitar Watson.

I'd love to have a nice AC30 or Twin to record with (along with the space for it) but I don't, and I'm sure other people don't either, which is why things like Pods are so popular. But in the end it's just a tool. Give a hammer to a clumsy person and they will do clumsy things with it.

So tell me this doesn't sound like an amp. I think its pretty convincing. It certainly sounds similar to the clips on your site. This is my FirstAct Garagemaster (one of those VW guitars) through my Roland mixer with a clean Twin patch. You can even hear what the pickups sound like. The guitar currently has a Duncan Jazz neck and a DiMarzio Al Di Meola bridge pickup. It's a nice little guitar that had the worst sounding stock pickups in it. Near the end I switch on the guitar's built in preamp to simulate a Rangemaster boost.

GarageMaster clean

Garagemaster Dirty

.

[Chadheckler1]

So tell me this doesn't sound like an amp. I think its pretty convincing. It certainly sounds similar to the clips on your site. This is my FirstAct Garagemaster (one of those VW guitars) through my Roland mixer with a clean Twin patch. You can even hear what the pickups sound like. The guitar currently has a Duncan Jazz neck and a DiMarzio Al Di Meola bridge pickup. It's a nice little guitar that had the worst sounding stock pickups in it. Near the end I switch on the guitar's built in preamp to simulate a Rangemaster boost.

GarageMaster clean

Garagemaster Dirty

.

...sounds pretty convincing to me!

I guess it shows that if you know what you are doing and have a good ear any of these reocrding methods will work.

I am still stuck on the "live vs. studio" debate...is it better to demo your pickups as they would sound to the listener in the room or the listener that is hearing the CD? I don't think we will all agree on the answer...but IMO I think most people would like to hear what the pickps will sound like live, and through a good tube amp.

I must give your post and your oppinion a lot of credit because the sound clips sounded pretty good...

[safas]

dummy comment

I am very interested in this issue as I am just beginning to get into building pickups primarily for use in steel guitars. Can somebody tell me what a POD is? Simple stuff like Radar I understand but this has me stumped.