Hand wound VS Machine wound

[safas]

I'm looking through a lot of these post and I see reference to handwound coils. Are you in fact, winding these coil by hand? I'm think after about the first 1000 turns, I'd be looking for some way to automate this process.

Is hand winding if in fact your are actually winding these by hand better then machine or semi-automatic winding?

Rick

[David Schwab]

Hand winding refers to guiding the wire onto the bobbin by hand, not wrapping it around the bobbin by hand. You use a coil winding machine to spin the bobbin.

Single coils have traditionally been wound this way and it introduces a random pattern to the wind. Humbuckers have traditionally been wound on more automated winders, which can lay the wire down more precisely.

Many boutique humbuckers are hand wound, however. Why? One reason is automated winders either have to be made by the winder, or bought, and they are very expensive. And then some winder like the tone better when wound by hand, or at least think they do.

I wind humbuckers by hand, but would use an automated machine if I had one.

[belwar]

Ahh the eternal debate!

I believe that at least for humbuckers that the best pickups are machine wound... That is, something with an Auto Traverse. The consistantly top rated humbucker pickups (PAF's, Seth Lover's, Lollar Imperials, and our own Jon's Throbak's) are all machine wound.

IMO, windings are only one part of the equations and not the nessesarily the most important. I could see it being way more important on singlecoils, but with that I have no experience so I cant comment.

b

[Spence]

I'm looking through a lot of these post and I see reference to handwound coils. Are you in fact, winding these coil by hand? I'm think after about the first 1000 turns, I'd be looking for some way to automate this process.

Is hand winding if in fact your are actually winding these by hand better then machine or semi-automatic winding?

Rick

Who cares? The end result should be a great-sounding pickup and that's all that matters in the grand scheme of things.

[greenfingers]

Would the bionic woman make the perfect winder ? we all know that women make the best winders and the fact that she is part machine would give her the best of both worlds.

But to me if it sounds good, it is good. no matter how it was wound.

[Mark Hammer]

I have wound coils 100% by hand, where every single turn involved me wrapping it yet one more time around the bobbin. I have wound coils where one hand turned the crank of a bench-mounted hand-drill and the other guided the wire as the bobbin spun around.

I can safely say without any measure of doubt whatsoever that:
1) As others note, you CAN make a decent-sounding pickup without the aid of any mechanical apparatus whatsoever.
2) It takes what feels like an eternity to wind a coil 100% by hand. Plan on spending an entire evening, or stretching it out over the space of a few days...or more if you are a smoker or had caffeine any time within the previous 24 hours. Under those latter circumstances, it will take longer to perform the inevitable wire splices, after you've torn the coil any number of times, than the actual winding takes.
3) It takes longer than commercial manufacturers would like it to take to produce a "hand-guided" coil with manual "mechanical assist", but you can easily have a functioning quality pickup, potted and soldered, within an hour using a hand-drill.
4) If you had any plans to address Christmas cards after winding a pickup 100% by hand, fuggedaboudit. Your wrist will lack any feeling or mobility whatsoever, and it's a real bugger to line up carpal-tunnel surgery over the holiday period. As a result, I strongly endorse use of mechanical assist.

[greenfingers]

I have wound coils 100% by hand, where every single turn involved me wrapping it yet one more time around the bobbin.

I don't know what to say other than you must have the patience of a saint, or your a sadomasochist.

[Possum]

...

The eternal debate yes but its pretty black and white to me. In hand winding the resonant peaks are usually smooth and wide. A machine wound pickup with one rate of traverse has a sharper resonant peak. Is either one better, well yes, to reproduce PAF tones you must machine wind, there is a set number of turns per layer and this produces a very distinct type of tonal response most noticeable when not playing loud or when turned down on your guitar's volume pot. PAFs have very characteristic type of resonant peaks. The same is true for P90s in my opinion. For single coils like strats and teles its an advantage to have a random scatter done by hand, this keeps the pickups from being ice picky. All that said, you can use a machine to do a hand wind scatter if you have enough control over your machine. I made my own machine and can do anything I want on it. Making pickups for a living it'd be insane to sit around all day moving your hand back and forth, if I did this I would be crippled by repetitive stress motion, some seem immune to this sort of thing but not me. If you're just winding a few pickups, hand guiding is no big deal, its cheap and it won't hurt you. Some like hand wound buckers, I used to but don't anymore. Some talented winders can get pretty close to a machine wind by watching the counter and trying to keep a certain TPL going, kinda boring but it can be done I guess.....

[David Schwab]

I have wound coils 100% by hand, where every single turn involved me wrapping it yet one more time around the bobbin.

That's how Rick Turner made his first pickups! He said he wife would walk in the room and ask him a question, and then he would loose track of the count and have to start over!

That's why he wound low Z pickups... less time spent winding.

[Magnut]

we all know that women make the best winders

Yeah, which is why I try to get in touch with my feminine side when winding

[Ruel]

Who cares? The end result should be a great-sounding pickup and that's all that matters in the grand scheme of things.

I agree with Spence. I don't care if one uses his two feet to wind a coil. The end result is what interests me.

[Possum]

...

Well I hear this alot on forums, they don't care how the coil is wound as long as it sounds good right? Thats fine unless you are doing an accurate recreation of a particular type of pickup like a PAF or a P90. So if you got some ebay pickup winder claiming he has real PAF tone, handwound, well you're getting a pickup wound by someone who doesn't know he's talking about. Sure, it may sound good, and if thats all that matters then thats fine, but if you want the true tonal peculiarities of a historic pickup then everything has to be done the authentic way they were done to begin with or you won't get there. It blows my mind that Bare Knuckles for instance did all this work to get all their PAF parts in the right direction then ended up handwinding them because "they sound better." Its kinda like lets recreate a '54 chevy, but oh lets put a Mazzerati engine in it because it'll go faster, sure it'll be cool to drive etc. but it won't be the real deal. In doing historic recreations, maintaining a certain turn count creates tonal oddities of the original vintage pickup. So if you want an authentic PAF tone and you actually have played them before and know how they sound, react, and feel, then you'll you want to make sure you're buying something done as authentically as possible. Arguably most players dont know and don't care, but I do

[greenfingers]

It blows my mind that Bare Knuckles for instance did all this work to get all their PAF parts in the right direction then ended up handwinding them because "they sound better." Its kinda like lets recreate a '54 chevy, but oh lets put a Mazzerati engine in it because it'll go faster, sure it'll be cool to drive etc. but it won't be the real deal.

Isn't that better for your business though. If Tim's main goal was to replicate a "p.a.f "down to the last detail, and I'm sure he could do it, It would eat into your slice of the pickup pie. Better hope he doesn't have a change of heart and start thinking that hand-winding is just for single coils because i bet he would go down the Throbak route and splash out on something with a historical connection with the pickups. Talking of the Throbak's. I finally heard some clips of the pickups he's been talking about making for a long time, and he has made some fine sounding "p.a.f" orientated hunbuckers. Can that sound be only created on a "Leesona" I honestly don't know. but they do sound very good. Congratulations to him.

[Spence]

The eternal debate yes but its pretty black and white to me. In hand winding the resonant peaks are usually smooth and wide. A machine wound pickup with one rate of traverse has a sharper resonant peak. Is either one better, well yes, to reproduce PAF tones you must machine wind, there is a set number of turns per layer and this produces a very distinct type of tonal response most noticeable when not playing loud or when turned down on your guitar's volume pot. PAFs have very characteristic type of resonant peaks. The same is true for P90s in my opinion. For single coils like strats and teles its an advantage to have a random scatter done by hand, this keeps the pickups from being ice picky. All that said, you can use a machine to do a hand wind scatter if you have enough control over your machine. I made my own machine and can do anything I want on it. Making pickups for a living it'd be insane to sit around all day moving your hand back and forth, if I did this I would be crippled by repetitive stress motion, some seem immune to this sort of thing but not me. If you're just winding a few pickups, hand guiding is no big deal, its cheap and it won't hurt you. Some like hand wound buckers, I used to but don't anymore. Some talented winders can get pretty close to a machine wind by watching the counter and trying to keep a certain TPL going, kinda boring but it can be done I guess.....

Balls!

So what about all the bad PAFs? You gonna recreate those too just because it's supposed to be historically accurate?

As far as I'm concerened, the so-called experts had better come up with a cast iron explanation as to why those magical winding machines could turn out shit just as often as good 'uns. Otherwise let this be the end of another inflamatory thread.

[greenfingers]

Balls!

So what about all the bad PAFs? You gonna recreate those too just because it's supposed to be historically accurate?

As far as I'm concerened, the so-called experts had better come up with a cast iron explanation as to why those magical winding machines could turn out shit just as often as good 'uns. Otherwise let this be the end of another inflamatory thread.

That's a head scratcher ain't it. The Leesona is suposed to have it's own fingerprint wind, and the imperfections in that wind is suposed to be responsible for that sound, but it is also responsible for some dull sounding buckers as well. I know it has been said that it was down to the way it was set up, But if the vareables were that great to make such a change in sound then cant you replicate that on any machine and not just the Leesona ? The pickups i heard from Throbak sounded very good. in fact i will go on record as to say they sounded Dam good. Is it just down to the wind? If it is, Gibson were very lucky to stumble upon it because i don't think they were thinking about winding patterns. Just get a machine that wind's multiple coils.