Hand wound VS Machine wound

[ShannonH]

If machine wound is better...

What factors is the machine wind affecting, and what is the desired result?

Now, I don't have an auto traversing machine winder available, so all my humbuckers have been hand wound, and thus I don't have a point of comparison. Is the scatter wind that I end up doing by hand guiding the wire creating a less clear tone? I have played some commercial pickup made by the two big boys, and have found that so far, my winds have better harmonics while retaining tonal clarity.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but really want to know what we are comparing, and what differences have been heard. If I really need to pony up for a autotraversing winder I will, but I can't see the magic just yet.

[JGundry]

What factors is the machine wind affecting, and what is the desired result?

Now, I don't have an auto traversing machine winder available, so all my humbuckers have been hand wound, and thus I don't have a point of comparison. Is the scatter wind that I end up doing by hand guiding the wire creating a less clear tone? I have played some commercial pickup made by the two big boys, and have found that so far, my winds have better harmonics while retaining tonal clarity.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but really want to know what we are comparing, and what differences have been heard. If I really need to pony up for a autotraversing winder I will, but I can't see the magic just yet.

At the most basic level what I hear is a clearer low end and more useable microphonics due to a coil that is more mechanically efficient than a hand wound coil. Both pluses for unpotted humbuckers IMO. There are other more subtle nuances too. The advantages become apparent when you use one. For $500.00 or less you can make a computer controlled machine that would do everything you would ever want. In the scheme of things that is a small price even if it is only to satisfy your curiosity.

[ShannonH]

So... let's say I'm one of those hairy ticks who doesn't really care to reproduce exact PAF tone, and generally wax pots all pickups. I understand the smoothing out of the resonant peak, which is already pretty smooth on a 'bucker without hand winding, and I can hear that on my winds, but it isn't objectionable to me, or to those who have tried them.

I understand this is a debate of taste and desirability, but that is also for the customer to decide. My worry is, when does this no longer get to be called "hand wound"? Are your single coils "Hand wound" and your humbuckers "hand assembled"? It doesn't carry the same ring of a handcrafted item, which is what most of us make, even if we use machinery to insure consistency and quality.

Thanks for your response

[JGundry]

So... let's say I'm one of those hairy ticks who doesn't really care to reproduce exact PAF tone, and generally wax pots all pickups. I understand the smoothing out of the resonant peak, which is already pretty smooth on a 'bucker without hand winding, and I can hear that on my winds, but it isn't objectionable to me, or to those who have tried them.

I understand this is a debate of taste and desirability, but that is also for the customer to decide. My worry is, when does this no longer get to be called "hand wound"? Are your single coils "Hand wound" and your humbuckers "hand assembled"? It doesn't carry the same ring of a handcrafted item, which is what most of us make, even if we use machinery to insure consistency and quality.

Thanks for your response

My feeling is that since PAF's were machine wound then machine winding will hold more weight to the informed customer than hand winding. But I agree if you want to claim you hand wind you need to hand wind. I think people get it though that with a boutique product you are paying for added attention by the maker. Sometimes that means hand winding is the better choice and sometimes that means machine winding is the better choice.

[jason lollar]

I looked at the leesona parts diagrams and part # 102-1-2 is the traverse cam- its the same cam used on every old scool mechanical winder, same one i have in mine- same one drawn in my book- same one they used in 1800's yarn spooling machinery, same one used on most old sewing machines for bobbin winding which you can. I just dont see the leesona being something unique
There are so many ways to manipulate those old winders to get rid of any real precision layering but still maintain consictancy.

heres a photo of the same thing many of the mechanical winders I have seen use
http://www.treadleon.net/sewingmachi...vsshuttle.html

[JGundry]

Sure the Leesona uses a heart shaped cam. No biggie, standard issue for an old school winder. The big variable that comes into play is literally the amount of play at the limits of the traverse travel. Essentially the Leesona 102 when dialed down to 1/4" is free wheeling for part of the traverse travel. No input from the machine while it decides to make up it's mind which direction it is going. The amount of this freewheeling is key and where this freewheeling happens is key. At it's 3" maximum travel the amount of play is minor percentage of the travel. Dialed down to 1/4" it is a much larger percentage of the traverse travel and has a real effect on how the wire is laid on the bobbin. Other factors like distance of the wire guide to the bobbin type of wire guides also play a part in how the wire is laid. Any other machine would have to have wire guides of the same diameter and distance from the bobbin to duplicate the same action. But the real need to know detail is how the traverse changes when the machine is dialed down to 1/4".

From a nuts and bolts mechanical perspective it makes no difference which machine you use in 99.9% of the other applications you would need a coil winder for. But with a guitar pickup these differences matter. It is the same sort of problem you run into when ordering pole screws. You will say something to the sales guy like, can you make these in 1018 steel? and they will say sure no problem then you say I also want these in 1022 steel and their replay is oh that's the same as 1018. To them the mechanical differences between the two of nearly non existent. But in an audio application the difference can be heard.

[jason lollar]

ahh so its sloppy! Thats what I like about the old mechanical machines and like you on my commercial winders I have taken advantage of that and even built parts for them to magnify the condition.

[JGundry]

The traverse guide rod is a 1/2" x 5' steel rod so it's very stable. Looking at it in use you would get the impression that it was a nice smooth traverse. But it is sloppy in the sense that when the traverse changes direction it takes some time for it to decide which way it's going. The percentage of the traverse travel that is effect by this lack of input from the machine is important.

[Possum]

...

this is so easy to do on an auto winder, in the software there is a parameter called "acceleration." There is also a thing called "start" rate, when properly set the traverse slows down at the end of the stroke hesitates then slowly goes back the other way, there is a huge amount of ways to just set those two settings, using them you can wind totally flat coils, hour glass shaped coils, or Leesona clone coils and even pyramid shaped coils. If you also set the end points a gnat's hair wider than the bobbin it will do a Leesona thing of hovering there and building up windings on the end, something you can do on any winder actually. This software is designed for plasma cutters and the like but it also makes idea coil winding software, and the fact that it ISN'T coil winding software is actually a plus in alot of ways for me. So yeah its cool to have a Leesona, but its alot more useful to have something that can wind in other ways as well and something thats easily modifiable to do more precise work or even more sloppier work too. There's a Leesona winder on Ebay right now, a different model but pretty much does the same thing, has a bunch of tensioners etc.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LEESONA-COIL-WIN...3286.m20.l1116

[JGundry]

Yes it is absolutely repeatable with a computer controlled winder. I actually think this is a real good reason to make your own computer controlled winder. With a computer controlled winder you can adjust this parameter instantly. But again to do what the Leesona 102 does accurately you have to have a direct reading from the machine. I guessed at it before I had my 102 machine and it was close but not quite right and the difference was audible. The traverse does not so much slow as just stop before it changes direction.

That Leesona on Ebay is a completely different design than the 102. I'm sure it has it's own thing going on but it's going to be different than the 102.

[Joe Gwinn]

The traverse guide rod is a 1/2" x 5' steel rod so it's very stable. Looking at it in use you would get the impression that it was a nice smooth traverse. But it is sloppy in the sense that when the traverse changes direction it takes some time for it to decide which way it's going. The percentage of the traverse travel that is affected by this lack of input from the machine is important.

This is called backlash or "lost motion", a fair description. Very easy to arrange, too,

[kevinT]

The traverse guide rod is a 1/2" x 5' steel rod so it's very stable. Looking at it in use you would get the impression that it was a nice smooth traverse. But it is sloppy in the sense that when the traverse changes direction it takes some time for it to decide which way it's going. The percentage of the traverse travel that is effect by this lack of input from the machine is important.

Jon,

I'm wondering, when you say it lags for short time before it decides to change direction, do you get wire building up on the areas of the bobbin where is lags? Do you make adjustments during the cycle to even out the coil or create the coil shape that you want? It seems that the wire would build up a little more on those areas where the traverse slows and hesitates for a moment. And being that the Leesona isn't a precise, hi-tech machine, what you're describing sounds as if it would do that.

I make adjustments on mine during the cycle...like if there is a wobble or something.

[JGundry]

Jon,

I'm wondering, when you say it lags for short time before it decides to change direction, do you get wire building up on the areas of the bobbin where is lags? Do you make adjustments during the cycle to even out the coil or create the coil shape that you want? It seems that the wire would build up a little more on those areas where the traverse slows and hesitates for a moment. And being that the Leesona isn't a precise, hi-tech machine, what you're describing sounds as if it would do that.

I make adjustments on mine during the cycle...like if there is a wobble or something.

Yes you get a little wire buildup where the lag is. I don't adjust during winding at all. I could not do it eeven if i wanted to anyway with the Leesona 102. You can control the wire buildup and make it disappear by shortening the traverse travel. Playing with the traverse travel, center and runout will get you almost any shape you want with the Leesona 102. Again though it's a specific amount of lag and this is one thing I'm going to keep to myself. I think the amount of lag is important because the area of lag is essentially part of the coil that is scattered and I think this localized scatter has a tonal effect. But if you want to experiment the is when the traverse changes direction.