need help with pickup device for acoustic guitar

[stringthing]

Hi all, this is my first post at this forum. I could use some experienced advice as I am not very knowledgeable with guitar wiring, but I do have good skills with soldering and whatnot.

I want to amplify my acoustic guitar. It has F-cuts... I used to have one of those screw-on pickup plates but it turned up missing (it really didn't work too well anyway). It records well with both a transducer on the saddle and sitting next to a microphone, but for a live application this would be awkward and constricting.

I currently have miscellaneous parts to experiment with like pickups, selector switches, tone/vol pots, wire, and even some parts leftover from my electronic drum projects like disc piezos. I'd like to come up with a solution, maybe even something that uses both a piezo and a pickup, but I haven't had any success so far on my own. I have done some research, but I am hoping that someone could help me more so than I can help myself.

Ideas, links- whatever, it is appreciated. I can supply photos if need be. Thanks.

[stringthing]

This is what I was afraid of- a thread that gets views with absolutely no input from any of those viewing. Isn't there anybody here that will share a single thought? Jeez. Tell me to get bent, at least that something.

[John_H]

Hi; give a better description of your guitar, "it has f cuts" is rather vague. If it's an archtop you have a few options that you don't with a typical flat top.

[David King]

Well since you're asking here it had better be about magnetic pickups since that what most of us know best. Here's a little pickup I wound for a tenor archtop guitar. It slides back and forth on aluminum rails that clip onto the tailpiece and are fastened under the end of the fingerboard with neodymium disk magnets. The pickup is just 4 alnicoII rods that I cut down to 7/16" long and wound with 42awg (about 5k ohms). The bobbin top and bottom plates are formica countertop material. The whole things is wrapped in copper foil and grounded to shield it and it's very quiet. Very cool sounding - lot's of "sproing" and a great attack but mellow overall as one would expect with A2 magnets.

[belwar]

If I understand correctly it sounds like you are considering trying to mix a Piezo (active pickup) and a magnetic pickup (passive). I'm no expert as im only an acoustic builder, not a pickup genius, but this is going to be very difficult to create on your own. All the Piezos i've ever seen have had to have some form of power to power it and usually some form of pre-amp. I've own and used the Fishman Natural Matrix I & II, B-Band A2, LR-Baggs Element, and a hand full of others. I dont really understand the Piezo technology as it seems there is alot too it that is WAY above this luthiers head.

Magnetic pickups on the other hand are (compartively) simple to make and you dont require a pre-amp or electronics degree to make. You can quite easily make a magnetic pickup for your guitar that could be really cool and totally different.

If you really have your heart set on combining them, I doubt it would be in one unit. You are going to have to have seperate systems and blend them on a mixer.

If I make the asumption that you are talking about F-holes you are probably refering to some form of arch top, then there are some really cool designs out there. Floating Mini Humbuckers, DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 or 1100. The Dearmond is particularly cool because you attach it below the bridge and dont have to drill any holes. very vintage sound too.

[stringthing]

Hi; give a better description of your guitar, "it has f cuts" is rather vague. If it's an archtop you have a few options that you don't with a typical flat top.

Sorry, that was a rather vague description. It is indeed an archtop. In fact, it is structurally very similar looking to the one in the picture that David King has posted.

I don't really want to build a pick up from scratch at this point in time. I do already have a few pickups from electric guitars though. I have tried one of them and it just sounded kind of blah by itself. I am not sure if this is because it is was for an electric guitar or not. I have been using a Dean Markley transducer so far, which is just a piezo for practical purposes, so I though that maybe I could get a good tone by using both together. That is about where my knowledge ends. I have seen projects for building preamps and such, but I really don't know how to make them perform together. I literally hooked up a pickup and a piezo to a volume knob just to see what happens. I am not sure that I even wired them correctly, but it sounded like crap and is not a solution. Maybe I need a preamp. I noticed this for sale:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.c...tem?sku=304014
As you can see, it does require a battery, but the circuit couldn't be that complex to fit in that tiny little tube, could it?

If I had to build an externally mounted device, even a box, that is alright. Even Danny Gatton had that awkward looking Dingus box and that didn't stop him from being a virtuoso. If it comes down to it, I may eventually fold and go out and buy something, but since I have a lot of parts laying around, I can't help but want to play Dr. Frankenstein.

Thanks for the input thus far, guys!

[John_H]

You could try a mini humbucker mounted to the pickguard or neck. I bought one of these a couple years ago, but I've been a little shy about mounting it to the guitar I had in mind for it originally. The one I've got is a Kent Armstrong. It seemed to sound ok when I mocked it up. There are others available.

You mentioned in you post that the pickups that you tried didn't sound very good. Were you using acoustic strings? If so that could be the problem. You will need to use electric strings for a magnetic pickup.

[stringthing]

You mentioned in you post that the pickups that you tried didn't sound very good. Were you using acoustic strings? If so that could be the problem. You will need to use electric strings for a magnetic pickup.

I have acoustic strings on it, yes. But you know those acoustic pickups, the kind you drop in the sound hole? How do those work with acoustic strings?

[belwar]

I had a talk with Lloyd Baggs this morning and asked him about your senario. You could use a product like his Element VT. The jack is stereo. You could use the Element Pickup which is active and that would give you that Piezo sound. You could then hook up a passive magnetic pickup to the ring on the jack. Using a MONO guitar cable, the Magnetic pickup would be bypassed and all you would hear is the Piezo. However use a STEREO cord and your piezo will be in one channel and the magnetic in the other channel. You would them mix them off board however you saw fit.

Lloyds pickups are one of the best out there for acoustic guitar. Great company. highly recommended.

[Albert Kreuzer]

I have acoustic strings on it, yes. But you know those acoustic pickups, the kind you drop in the sound hole? How do those work with acoustic strings?

They don't. Usually these are for steel string guitars.

[stringthing]

They don't. Usually these are for steel string guitars.

Wow, I can't believe that for as long as I've played guitar now I've not realized that. I'll have to throw some steel strings on it and see what the coil pickup does.

I had a talk with Lloyd Baggs this morning and asked him about your senario. You could use a product like his Element VT. The jack is stereo. You could use the Element Pickup which is active and that would give you that Piezo sound. You could then hook up a passive magnetic pickup to the ring on the jack. Using a MONO guitar cable, the Magnetic pickup would be bypassed and all you would hear is the Piezo. However use a STEREO cord and your piezo will be in one channel and the magnetic in the other channel. You would them mix them off board however you saw fit.

Lloyds pickups are one of the best out there for acoustic guitar. Great company. highly recommended.

The idea of using a TRS jack has crossed my mind. I'll look into Lloyd's elements to see what the pricing is like. The thing about F-slots though is I wouldn't be able to install the pin. Good suggestion however, belwar.