which coil hotter in PAFs?

[David Schwab]

Why don't you guys try each other's approach and see what happens?
That would be deviating from your stablished standards but I guess we all would benefit from the experiment.
Of course, please report back if you decide to take on the challenge.

This is actually a very interesting experiment. Someone did something like this with classical guitar making. They took several luthiers with very different approaches, and very different sounding guitars, and had them each make one from a common set of plans, and identical materials (as identicle as you can get with wood).

In the end each guitar makers guitar sounded pretty much like their instruments usually do, even though they were building in a different style, etc.

Kind of makes you wonder how much of it is really intangible, and directly linked to the builder.

I wound two PAF humbucker kits, and they sound quite different than what I'm used to hearing... for instance from my '81 Les Paul Standard.

They were much brighter, and very "plucky" on a Charvel Strat copy.

It would be cool to see the various members here wind a common design pickup and then see how each sounds compared to their own designs!

You gotta say, even with factory winding, Duncans sound different from DiMarzios.

[soundmasterg]

You gotta say, even with factory winding, Duncans sound different from DiMarzios.

Thankfully so!

[alnicomag]

Over 4 years and 5 months later, and I'd like to know if anyone who posted above has changed their opinion on the slug vs screw side being wound hotter for their own favourite PAF recipe.

Since "Possum" (StephensDesign) started the thread and has become more of an expert on PAF's since 2006, I'd definitely like to hear what coil you're doing the hotter wind on for the bridge and neck pickups.

Also, in addition to the posts by the pickup makers above, I've read posts or interviews indicating that WCR and Lollar seem to do the screw coils hotter, HighOrder usually the slug hotter, Zhangbucker the coil hotter that is closest to the neck (so screw coil on the neck pup, and slug coil on bridge pup). Just going by memory so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[big_teee]

Over 4 years and 5 months later, and I'd like to know if anyone who posted above has changed their opinion on the slug vs screw side being wound hotter for their own favourite PAF recipe.

Since "Possum" (StephensDesign) started the thread and has become more of an expert on PAF's since 2006, I'd definitely like to hear what coil you're doing the hotter wind on for the bridge and neck pickups.

Also, in addition to the posts by the pickup makers above, I've read posts or interviews indicating that WCR and Lollar seem to do the screw coils hotter, HighOrder usually the slug hotter, Zhangbucker the coil hotter that is closest to the neck (so screw coil on the neck pup, and slug coil on bridge pup). Just going by memory so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've experimented some with this and as a rule I wind the slug coil a little hotter on the bridge and I usually wind the neck close to the same.
My reasoning is if you put more on the neck screw coil it tends to get muddy sounding fast.
It can be guitar dependant.
The reasoning IMO on the Bridge is most guitars are too bright to start with and I want the biggest coil farthest away from the bridge.
Heck start experimenting and tell us what you come up with.
Good Luck,
Terry

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'd like to find the source article for the anecdote David mentions. I love classical guitars and would love to read that.

but, the rest of the thread is fascinating, too. I haven't done much with humbuckers yet (I shy away from areas where there is a lot of competition), but it is still great to read about.

[RedHouse]

Seems to me if you wind the neck pickup with more "screw" coil +offset, you get the typical "Since I've Been Loving You" tone. Winding the bridge pickup with the "screw" +offset you get a more harmonic tone (EVH / Gibbons) than if you wind the slug coil more +offset where you get a more Jimmy Page tone (much less/no chirping harmonics)

But then you knew that I'm sure, didn't you Possum? having done all that "testing" you have posted about over the years. Actually surprised when I saw this post.

[alnicomag]

Over 4 years and 5 months later, and I'd like to know if anyone who posted above has changed their opinion on the slug vs screw side being wound hotter for their own favourite PAF recipe.

Since "Possum" (StephensDesign) started the thread and has become more of an expert on PAF's since 2006, I'd definitely like to hear what coil you're doing the hotter wind on for the bridge and neck pickups.

This is "trade secret stuff" for Possum now. Understandable with all the time and money put into R&D since this thread started. I suppose the only way to find out is to buy a set of his pickups for $475 and test them yourself.

[copperheadroads]

Or wind a few & come up with your own conclusions .
not all winders get the same results . or agree with one & other

[big_teee]

The effects of mismatched coils is easy to test.
Wind a humbucker with a mismatch.
Mount and play the humbucker wit screws toward the bridge.
Then simply turn the pickup around, mount and play with the slug coil toward the bridge.
I've done this, and the pickup IMO is always brighter with the larger coil toward the bridge.
You can do the same thing with the neck pickup. The neck pickup gets muddy fast with more coil and pickup area nearest the neck.
If you have a fairly large mismatch the difference in mounting posistion is very noticeable!
I came up with the very same conclusion that JGrundy did in his posts.
Later,
Terry

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

That seems like a bit of an oversimplification, Terry... the two coils have different core masses (and materials, depending on the construction) and I don't think that would be a substitute for actually winding the two coils differently. It certainly is a worth while experiment in its own regard, though.

[big_teee]

That seems like a bit of an oversimplification, Terry... the two coils have different core masses (and materials, depending on the construction) and I don't think that would be a substitute for actually winding the two coils differently. It certainly is a worth while experiment in its own regard, though.

Well the only differences is one coil has screws and and a keeper bar and the other has slugs.
For the experiment make both coils a like.
Make them both slugs, or both screws, your choice.
Mine and JGrundy's point is that the bigger coil posistion, makes more difference than a little bit of metal does, IMO!
Terry

[guitician]

I have a couple of Gibson '57 classics that were 9.2K(not plus models) that i wanted to experiment removing windings to see were i could get them as far as true PAF tone. I started with the neck which was too hot for sure, so I took about 1k ohms off of the screw coil(both were matched 4.6k ea.). My thinking was that the screws are closer to the strings so they would have more pickup. The change was very lively and seemed to be louder, which doesn't make sense. It would get this fantastic woman tone. But, I think I want it to get less of a muddy tone, or maybe I'm thinking more treble like the bridge pickup has. So, I'm thinking of bringing it down closer to 7.6-7.2K. I found some ALNiCo V short mags and swapped them for the ALNiCo II, which gave them some bite and helped bring up the mids. But, still it seems like there are too many windings. And, then I did the bridge pickup, same 1K off the screw coil, and wow, it was pretty bright before, now it cranks lead tones like any in recorded rock music. I guess they thought ALNiCo II needed more winds? But more winds are not "Vintage Tone" and this guitar is a Gibson Historic? Oh well, I guess it sold the Burstbuckers, to the people that needed to upgrade.

[big_teee]

I have a couple of Gibson '57 classics that were 9.2K(not plus models) that i wanted to experiment removing windings to see were i could get them as far as true PAF tone. I started with the neck which was too hot for sure, so I took about 1k ohms off of the screw coil(both were matched 4.6k ea.). My thinking was that the screws are closer to the strings so they would have more pickup. The change was very lively and seemed to be louder, which doesn't make sense. It would get this fantastic woman tone. But, I think I want it to get less of a muddy tone, or maybe I'm thinking more treble like the bridge pickup has. So, I'm thinking of bringing it down closer to 7.6-7.2K. I found some ALNiCo V short mags and swapped them for the ALNiCo II, which gave them some bite and helped bring up the mids. But, still it seems like there are too many windings. And, then I did the bridge pickup, same 1K off the screw coil, and wow, it was pretty bright before, now it cranks lead tones like any in recorded rock music. I guess they thought ALNiCo II needed more winds? But more winds are not "Vintage Tone" and this guitar is a Gibson Historic? Oh well, I guess it sold the Burstbuckers, to the people that needed to upgrade.

That pretty much goes with what I said.
I like the bridge a little hotter on the slug coil and I like the neck about 7.3k Equal symmetrical.
What I like about the asymmetrical concept, is if you wind you can tune each coil for your particular guitar.
Your guitar to bright on the bridge, more winds on slug, your bridge not bright enough try equal or more on the screw coil.
After All isn't that why we hand wind so we can customize for the guitar.
Supposedly The FrankenStrat Pickup was 4.3 on screws, and 4.6,4.7k on the bridge with a A2 Magnet.
My fav, is 4.5 on screws, and 4.8 on the slugs, and yes the slug coil is full!
Later,
Terry

[guitician]

Oh yeah, I should end up equal(3.6/3.6) on the neck if I take down the slug coil.

Maybe I'll try flipping the neck pickup around ala PG and see if the slug coil closer to the neck helps first.

[big_teee]

Oh yeah, I should end up equal(3.6/3.6) on the neck if I take down the slug coil.

Maybe I'll try flipping the neck pickup around ala PG and see if the slug coil closer to the neck helps first.

Yes let us know what effect that has.
I predict it will make the Neck pickup muddier on the Low strings.
Good Luck,
Terry