Pickup gurus...a question

[Stevenson]

Look at the old Fenders dipped in Fullerplast and then sprayed with nitro (or acrylic) lacquer. You can't get that Fullerplast off the wood. It's as hard as a rock. And those guitars sound just fine.

Eventually air quality laws will mean that every guitar is finished with UV cured poly.

Two things, Fenders were never dipped in Fullerplast, it was sprayed on. Second, Fullerplast is not polyester and has nothing in common with it.

[David Schwab]

Two things, Fenders were never dipped in Fullerplast, it was sprayed on.

That's correct.

Second, Fullerplast is not polyester and has nothing in common with it.

Right, it's a catalyzed (conversion) varnish. My point was about it being a hard finish.

[Spence]

I once heard something along the lines that once a new pickup is installed and played that something changes when it is activated electronically that can change the tone of the pickup. thats the GIST of what i recall reading somewhere many years ago. That said, years back i had a fender 57/62 vintage style single i bought new and stuck in my fav strat. I was immediatly thrilled with the tone. I absolutly loved it. I played it for a while and it seemed to change. Next time i picked it up it sounded so lousy i removed it ! I know what you are thinking and yes, i have many times picked up a guitar and loved it and the next day it hjust wasn't the same. same with amps and other things. I contemplated that as the possible reason, but the difference was just much too dramatic. I never had that happen with another pickup since.

So the question of course is, does anyone know of any fact behind what i had read way back then? Could that be what i had experienced with that fender pickup? If so, why not with other's i hve tried?

I'm not a Guru of any sort but I think that any change occurring in the pickup would have related to the gauss level of the magnets. This change is most likely to happen if the guitar is leaned up against a big speaker or some other magnetic influence.

[daz]

yeah, i read that before somewhere also long ago. But it wasn't leaned against a speaker or any of that. Just put in the same place my guitar had always been.

[Possum]

....

I had the privelege of looking over Chris Duarte's vintage strat guard with pickups in it, the neck had been rewound by Fralin with the wrong wire, the middle pickup was in ok shape the bridge was in bad shape. I wound a set of temp pickups for him to use while his guard was with me. He really like those vintage formvar pickups and I wasn't able to match readings on the LCR meter I was getting from his still alive pickups. And I discovered why-----the bridge pickup had almost every magnet shorted to the poles, Curtis Novak had worked on that pickup and I think somehow slid the coil off the magnets, no wonder they were all shorted out. But the middle pickup, unmolested, too, had a couple poles shorted to the coil, which of course noticeably darkens the tone of the pickup. Those shorts could have a beneficial warming up of the the pickup, something you might not think of offhand. Another think I noticed is that the cloth covered wire in the guard had noticeably high DC resistance readings off pretty short sections of wire. Duarte sweats real bad when he plays so the original pots and caps were long gone.....

[mkat]

I always listen to a solid body unplugged first, including my basses. If it sounds like crap unplugged, it's going to sound like crap amplified. Louder crap.

Same here with basses too.

[jack briggs]

Nitro is not thinner. It all depends on how much your spray. I used catalyzed nitro on my instruments. It's very hard when cured. Also you are saying nitro is not as hard, so why would they use plasticizers? I've never heard of a plastisizer used with nitro. Nitro is plastic... it's cellulose. Just like cellophane.

Cured nitro is hard, which is why plasticizers are added, to help prevent checking and cracking.

The common word "plastic" should not be confused with the technical adjective "plastic", which is applied to any material which undergoes a permanent change of shape (a "plastic deformation") when strained beyond a certain point. Aluminum, for instance, is "plastic" in this sense, but not "a plastic" in the common sense; while some plastics, in their finished forms, will break before deforming — and therefore are not "plastic" in the technical sense.

For a solid body guitar you are not going to hear any difference between a nitro finish, thin or thick, and a poly finish. You also wont hear any different stripping the guitar to the bare wood (as long as you don't remove wood in the process). I know this from direct experience building instruments. My buddy always uses 2 part urethane finishes, and his guitars sound just like all the Les Pauls he owns.

I think you should have stated "...I am not going to hear any difference between a nitro finish and a poly finish." My ears are not the same as yours.

Current Les Pauls, and all Gibsons are finished with a highly modified nitro-based finish that has so much plasticizer as to make it hardly at all like the finishes used in the '50's.

As far as nitro being plastic, yes - by definition. But as stated above, it is a plastic in the nounal definition, as opposed to the adjectival definition. That said, urethanes are far more plastic (adjectival) than nitrocellulose. Catalized or not. And the feel - urethanes feel more plasticky than quality nitro every day of the week.

The idea that the finish is damping the wood is silly because the wood has far more mass. The finish will vibrate along with the body. The other silly things I read all the time is that the wood needs to "breathe" and that poly traps moisture in. The wood doesn't breathe, it's dead, and If nitro lets moisture out, it will also let it in! Finish is suppose to prevent that from happening.

Oh boy - you've not played a guitar prior to finishing and then after? If so, you didn't hear any difference? Maybe you don't, but I sure do. Obviously others here do as well. It's a safe statement to make that minute details will not be pertinent to the overall tonal response, when considered that the instrument may be at the head of a long signal chain ending in a high gain amplifier and speakers that deliver a sound that hardly represents the acoustic quality of the instrument alone. But some can detect these minutiae to a painful degree. Finish film thickness comes into play more than finish type, but to say that one type of finish sounds the same as another is to say that one type of wood sounds the same as another of the same density. It just ain't so!

Look at the old Fenders dipped in Fullerplast and then sprayed with nitro (or acrylic) lacquer. You can't get that Fullerplast off the wood. It's as hard as a rock.

You can get anything off if you know how to approach it.


Cheers,

[David Schwab]

Cured nitro is hard, which is why plasticizers are added, to help prevent checking and cracking.

Different lacquers have different amounts. Lacquer in spray cans has a lot of plasticizer. The Sherwin-Williams stuff I was using didn't.

The common word "plastic" should not be confused with the technical adjective "plastic"...

plastic |ˈplastik|
noun
a synthetic material made from a wide range of organic polymers such as polyethylene, PVC, nylon, etc., that can be molded into shape while soft and then set into a rigid or slightly elastic form.

And Plastic

Plastic is the general common term for a wide range of synthetic or semisynthetic organic solid materials suitable for the manufacture of industrial products. Plastics are typically polymers of high molecular weight, and may contain other substances to improve performance and/or reduce costs.

Nitrocellulose lacquer qualifies as an organic polymer, therefor a plastic.

Lacquer

The term lacquer originates from the Portuguese word for lac, a type of resin excreted from certain insects.[1] Regardless, in modern usage, lac-based varnishes are referred to as shellac, while lacquer refers to other polymers dissolved in Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs), such as nitrocellulose and later acrylic compounds dissolved in a solvent generally referred to as lacquer thinner.[2]

Celluloid is the name of a class of compounds created from nitrocellulose and camphor, plus dyes and other agents. Generally regarded to be the first thermoplastic

They are all polymers. Polyester is a polymer as is cellulose. Polyesters include naturally-occurring chemicals, such as in the cutin of plant cuticles, as well as synthetics such as polycarbonate and polybutyrate.

I think you should have stated "...I am not going to hear any difference between a nitro finish and a poly finish." My ears are not the same as yours.

This is the opinion of myself, who's hearing is fine, and other instrument making friends.

Current Les Pauls, and all Gibsons are finished with a highly modified nitro-based finish that has so much plasticizer as to make it hardly at all like the finishes used in the '50's.

Still wont alter the tone if applied correctly.

As far as nitro being plastic, yes - by definition. But as stated above, it is a plastic in the nounal definition, as opposed to the adjectival definition. That said, urethanes are far more plastic (adjectival) than nitrocellulose. Catalized or not. And the feel - urethanes feel more plasticky than quality nitro every day of the week.

No, it's a plastic by the virtue that it is a polymer. Otherwise it would not cure into a shiny film.

Oh boy - you've not played a guitar prior to finishing and then after? If so, you didn't hear any difference?

Did you not read my posts? Yes, I have many times. Every time I built a instrument in fact. Read the bio on my website.

The instruments sound the same both ways. I've also played one of my basses with finish, later removed the finish, played it that way, then refinished it... after re-contouring the body. No big difference at all.

They will start to sound different within a few weeks after being strung up.

[jack briggs]

Different lacquers have different amounts. Lacquer in spray cans has a lot of plasticizer. The Sherwin-Williams stuff I was using didn't.

I thought Sherwin-Williams quit making nitro years ago. How long ago did you use this? Remember the name/number?



Cheers,

[David Schwab]

I thought Sherwin-Williams quit making nitro years ago. How long ago did you use this? Remember the name/number?

It was about 1993. I had a 5 gallon drum of the stuff. I can find out the number next time I'm at the shop as I have all my old receipts. It was listed as catalyzed nitro.

I just googled and I see SHER-WOOD® Catalyzed Lacquer:

SHER-WOOD® Catalyzed Lacquer combines the toughness and chemical resistance of catalyzed varnishes and the depth and appearance properties associated with high quality nitrocellulose lacquers.

I'm not sure if that's the same stuff I used, but the gloss part number is T77C30. I'm guessing this is something else because for the pre-catalyzed product they say "Very fast dry to sanding and packing - like nitrocellulose lacquer." It was called SHER-WOOD though, I remember that much.

I liked it a lot, but my partner at the time didn't seem to care for it, though he never said why. I used the post-catalyzed stuff.

I think he liked CAB-Acrylic lacquer better because he didn't like the amber hue of the nitro.

I think it looks very nice

[Brock Little]

The same old argument...

It seems that people on either side of this old argument can't understand why the other half just don't get it! I feel the exactly same way.

Why is it that those who advocate poly finishes say that they apply it very thinly? If you're so adamant that the product makes no difference to the tone, then why not put it on nice and thick? It'll at least look good!

Sure, if you apply any finish as thinly as possible, then you've given yourself the best chance, but the product you use really does affect the tone.

Most people think that polyester is very strong and resilient because it's hard. Sorry. Rubber is resilient. The hardest finishes are brittle and prone to cracking. Would you use latex to cover your instrument? It might prevent it from getting any STDs, but it won't do much for the tone!

[Possum]

......

I bet if you had two identical unfinished guitars and finished both in same thickness nitro and poly and had some instrument that could measure accurately the resonance and frequency response of the wood you WOULD hear a difference. Most of us probably wouldn't notice, but take someone like Eric Johnson and I bet he could hear it. I bet violin makers aren't using poly finishes for their high end stuff, and there is a reason why. Little things really DO make a difference, otherwise everyone's pickups would sound the same, right? I think its a shame Gibson is using stuff that is tone killing in their high end Les Pauls, but they did tell someon they aren't for playing. I think probably the older Japanese lacquer finished LP's are probably the best made since the real thing.....

[Stevenson]

It seems that people on either side of this old argument can't understand why the other half just don't get it! I feel the exactly same way.

Why is it that those who advocate poly finishes say that they apply it very thinly? If you're so adamant that the product makes no difference to the tone, then why not put it on nice and thick? It'll at least look good!

Sure, if you apply any finish as thinly as possible, then you've given yourself the best chance, but the product you use really does affect the tone.

Most people think that polyester is very strong and resilient because it's hard. Sorry. Rubber is resilient. The hardest finishes are brittle and prone to cracking. Would you use latex to cover your instrument? It might prevent it from getting any STDs, but it won't do much for the tone!

Actually, polyester is very brittle. Polyester can easily be built up to a very thick coat due to it's higher solids content and stability under those circumstances so the temptation to do so is there. It is more durable than nitro or polyurethane so for guitars going to dealers and being tried out often it is ideal. Finish thickness does make a difference, I've sprayed over 500 guitars with the stuff and have done many experiments with thickness, it makes a difference. The main advantage to polyester is that you don't have to wait for weeks before you can buff it out.

Ted

[jack briggs]

I bet violin makers aren't using poly finishes for their high end stuff, and there is a reason why. Little things really DO make a difference, otherwise everyone's pickups would sound the same, right?

I agree totally with this statement. If you take the approach that everything makes a difference, then the end result will show it (and sound it).



Cheers,

[Zhangliqun]

Maybe it takes 3 days for the new strings to stabilize and get a little bit of a tarnish going?

I'm with Dave, I've never heard of this either, and that would be my first question. If you put new strings on, the strings will sound very different after 2-3 days of breaking in, less brassy and bright. So if you put new strings on with a pickup change...