2 types of wire in a HB?

[paulyy]

Hello everyone. My name is Paul. Iv been wondering if any body has ever tryed two types of coil wire for a humbucker. For example, 42 guage enamel for one coil and 42 formrav for the other coil and has any body tryed useing two different guages. Just wondering.

[David Schwab]

Hello everyone. My name is Paul. Iv been wondering if any body has ever tryed two types of coil wire for a humbucker. For example, 42 guage enamel for one coil and 42 formrav for the other coil and has any body tryed useing two different guages. Just wondering.

DiMarzio had a patent on using two different gauge wires in humbuckers. They do that with the Tone Zone, Air Norton, Evo, etc. The patent is expired now.

I use that trick on a few of my pickups as well.

[voodoochild]

Keep in mind that if you use the exact same wire guage (all things being equal), insulation build, number of turns per layer, tension, etc, and you only choose a different type of insulation (PE, Formvar, etc) there will be no difference in sound. When it comes to the wire, you will only notice a difference when you change insulation build (min vs max) and wire guage. For example, 42 guage formvar with a heavy insulation compared to 42 gauge formvar with single build insulation will sound completely different, and 42 guage single build formvar compared to single build plain enamel (given that the inner and outher diameter are the same) will sound the same. Insulation type has nothing to do with sound. Only the thickness of the insulation.

[paulyy]

Thanks for the info.

[JGundry]

Keep in mind that if you use the exact same wire guage (all things being equal), insulation build, number of turns per layer, tension, etc, and you only choose a different type of insulation (PE, Formvar, etc) there will be no difference in sound. When it comes to the wire, you will only notice a difference when you change insulation build (min vs max) and wire guage. For example, 42 guage formvar with a heavy insulation compared to 42 gauge formvar with single build insulation will sound completely different, and 42 guage single build formvar compared to single build plain enamel (given that the inner and outher diameter are the same) will sound the same. Insulation type has nothing to do with sound. Only the thickness of the insulation.

If you machine wind the different coatings will guide themselves onto the bobbin differently due to differences in texture and you will hear the difference. Some wire coatings jump around more as the coil builds than others. Especially if the machine is set up to do something other than a perfectly flat coil shape.

[kevinT]

Hello everyone. My name is Paul. Iv been wondering if any body has ever tryed two types of coil wire for a humbucker. For example, 42 guage enamel for one coil and 42 formrav for the other coil and has any body tryed useing two different guages. Just wondering.

Yes. Different insulations and builds, same gauge.

I assure you that it affects tone.

[voodoochild]

I am only basing my opinion off of personal experience. For me, insulation has no effect on tone. I used to be convinced it did until I rethough my evaluation. It only does when there is a difference in the thickness of insulation or wire. Maybe I don't have the best ears but I am very certain of this. Don't forget, even a machine wound coil using the same wire, etc, will vary from one coil to the next ever so slightly. There is no such thing as "perfect" consistency even on a machine.

[JGundry]

I am only basing my opinion off of personal experience. For me, insulation has no effect on tone. I used to be convinced it did until I rethough my evaluation. It only does when there is a difference in the thickness of insulation or wire. Maybe I don't have the best ears but I am very certain of this. Don't forget, even a machine wound coil using the same wire, etc, will vary from one coil to the next ever so slightly. There is no such thing as "perfect" consistency even on a machine.

I have a machine that gangs 4 bobbins next to each other and you can actually see the difference in wire scatter as they wind when the bobbins are side by side.

[Possum]

...

Insulations don't sound the same to me either, the dielectric properties of formvar vs. plain enamel are really noticeable to me. I do alot of prototype pickups in my PAF work and going from single PE to single formvar was noticeable enough for me to not use formvar in PAFs. Formvar was noticeably darker sounding, smoother, PE was more a dry tone, crisper. Seth Lover always said he couldn't hear any difference. Its not a big difference but if you're comparing alot of test pickups against eachother you'll hear it eventually.

[Possum]

....

Dave do you know the number offhand of one of the DiMarzio patents with different wire, I lost that info somehow...

[j. pierce]

So if I wanted to wind one coil with 42 and one with 43, what would I want to watch to make the two coils balanced as far as humbucking properties? resistance? number of turns? Total area of the wire?

[kevinT]

I hear a difference in tone among the insulations. Especially comparing SPN and Plain Enamel. But everyone's ears are different.

If you do a search there is a thread about this specific issue. From my recollection, Nightwinder did a good description on each that was right on target.

[David Schwab]

dave do you know the number offhand of one of the dimarzio patents with different wire, i lost that info somehow...

4501185

[voodoochild]

Insulations don't sound the same to me either, the dielectric properties of formvar vs. plain enamel are really noticeable to me. I do alot of prototype pickups in my PAF work and going from single PE to single formvar was noticeable enough for me to not use formvar in PAFs. Formvar was noticeably darker sounding, smoother, PE was more a dry tone, crisper. Seth Lover always said he couldn't hear any difference. Its not a big difference but if you're comparing alot of test pickups against eachother you'll hear it eventually.

In my experience with formvar was warmer with less mids compared to plain enamel. The reason I am sure is because the Formvar was heavy build and the PE was single build which makes total sense. In fact most 42 formvar sold is Heavy build and most 42 PE is single build.

[Joe Gwinn]

Insulations don't sound the same to me either, the dielectric properties of formvar vs. plain enamel are really noticeable to me. I do alot of prototype pickups in my PAF work and going from single PE to single formvar was noticeable enough for me to not use formvar in PAFs. Formvar was noticeably darker sounding, smoother, PE was more a dry tone, crisper. Seth Lover always said he couldn't hear any difference. Its not a big difference but if you're comparing alot of test pickups against eachother you'll hear it eventually.

Do you know the varnish thickness and copper diameters of the two kinds of wire in question?

There is a lot of variation in copper diameter from spool to spool, and formvar generally tends to be thicker than plain enamel.

Formvar is prized for its mechanical strength and resistance to abrasion, making it suitable for winding electric motors, a very severe process.