Uneven coil windings on a HB

[paulyy]

I hear its better to wind one coil hotter than the other for a humbucker. If so, How many winds. For example, say you wind one coil at 5000 and the other at 5400. is that to much or not enough. What side do you wind hotter, the screw side or the slug side or does it matter.

[belwar]

hi there,

if you do a search through the forum you'll find a couple of great threads which explain this in detail. many makers offset a coil.. usually the slug is heavier iirc. though I know that lindy fralin has had some excelent results from doing the oposite coil. personally I keep the winds on the bridge pu the same and offset the next about 400 winds per coil.. something like 4700 and 5100, if have to check the little sticky note next to my winder. the theory is that you can get a little better freq response out of the )2

[JGundry]

Doing a coil offset by counting turns will only work if both bobbins are being wound from the same spool of wire and if that spool of wire has a consistent O.D. through the spool. If we are talking about PAF's the wire diameter varied quite a bit within the 42AWG tolerance. 42AWG was not sorted min. nom. / nom. max like it is now. Gibson used winding machines that had multiple spools of wire. You can easily get a .25K coil offset with the same number of turns by just using spools with two different O.D.'s within the 42AWG tolerance. These differences are very apparent if you are machine winding. The tone will be different as well with an offset caused by a difference in O.D. rather than turn count. By the time Gibson switched to poly wire the O.D. became much more consistent.

From my experience these are the factors other than turn count that effect coil offset.

1. Variation in the wire diameter from spool to spool within the 42AWG tolerance.

2. Differences in turn per layer count. A lower turn per layer count will put more wire on the bobbin for the same number of turns.

3. Differences in the ramp down stop speed of different machines. I know of four machines that Gibson used and they all behave differently in this regard.

4. Differences in coil shape. Different shapes will take up more or less wire for the same number of turns.

If you rely on turn count alone you are only getting part of the picture with coil offset. Playing with all of the variables will get you different tonal results than simply relying on differences in turn count from the same spool. If you don't machine wind some of these variables go out the window as you can't control things like coil shape in the same manner as a machine guided traverse when you hand wind.

[David Schwab]

Some pickups are offset by quite a bit, such as an old Hi-A pickup I have, which has a 1K offset.

I've offset pickups by 1000 turns and they are still quiet, while having more top end and less low/mid accentuation.

Most of the pickups I examine have a much smaller offset, if they have one at all. Sometimes evenly matched coils sounds best. Depends on the tone you are after.

You can also wind with two different gauge wires, and as long as the turn count matches they still hum cancel as if they were the same wire gauge.

[eggman6]

Can you believe dimarzio have a patent for using a different wire gauge for each bobbin on their humbuckers, what idiot granted them that. I would imagine it has the same effect as offsetting the coils. Think the patent runs out in a year or two though.

[madialex]

I have said it before. I am supprised LD has not tried to patent breathing or even the way hamburgers are put together. That way everyone who ever makes a burger will get sued or have to pay him for the rights to use the technique. Sheeesh

[paulyy]

He also has a patent on using double white bobbins. The only reason I know this is because a friend of mine had a set of his double white humbuckers on his site. Dimarzio sent him a letter demanding he takes the picthers of his double white HB because he owns the patent on it. LAME!

[eggman6]

I don't see how its possible to put a patent on the color of bobbins, also theres many companies that have humbuckers with both bobbins being white, i would have told him to go do something to himself, to put it politely.

[paulyy]

I don't see how its possible to put a patent on the color of bobbins, also theres many companies that have humbuckers with both bobbins being white, i would have told him to go do something to himself, to put it politely.

I know. I said the same thing. Dumb!

[David Schwab]

Can you believe dimarzio have a patent for using a different wire gauge for each bobbin on their humbuckers, what idiot granted them that. I would imagine it has the same effect as offsetting the coils. Think the patent runs out in a year or two though.

They came up with the idea, or at least where the ones to develop it and patent it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what patents are for. If you have a new or novel idea, and get a patent, it affords you some time to make your product without the competition copying your idea.

They based some of their most popular models on that patent like the Tone Zone and Norton.

Patents last for 20 years. This patent was filed July 1983, and was granted February of 1985. That's 24 years ago, so it has since expired.

[David Schwab]

I don't see how its possible to put a patent on the color of bobbins, also theres many companies that have humbuckers with both bobbins being white, i would have told him to go do something to himself, to put it politely.

It's not a patent, it's a Trade Mark. In the late 70's DiMarzio was pretty much the first after market pickup maker. The Super Distortion Humbucker was their first product, and it only came in double cream. That was their look, and when you saw a double cream pickup, and with the dual rows of hex head pole pieces, that was a DiMarzio. When they came out with the Model P bass pickup, that was also in double cream. So if you saw a P bass with a cream pickup, it was a DiMarzio.

So in this case the color of the pickup was just like having a registered company logo. People saw it and knew it was a DiMarzio. That was their trade dress. The color is just like having their name on it.

Look at H&R Block. Big green square. Try making your logo that color with a square. You will be asked to change it. Or the Nike or Coke swoosh shape. Or an Apple with a bite taken out of it. Those are trade marks.

If a company made pickups, and they were all red, and only in red, they would get an image in people's minds... so you see the red pickups, and it's made by XYZ Pickups, or whatever.

What I don't agree with however, is the fact that DiMarzio's standard pickup color is now black, and not double cream. And often they have their logo on the pickups. So they should drop the double cream trade mark, as they hardly ever use it anymore.

But it makes sense from a business point of view, and is perfectly legal.

You can also get a design patent, or a trade mark on the look of something. This is why you can't copy Fender's headstock shape, or PRS and Rickenbacker guitar shapes, without getting legal threats.

[eggman6]

Still seems crazy that someone could get a trademark on a colour. Equally ridiculous.

[David Schwab]

Still seems crazy that someone could get a trademark on a colour. Equally ridiculous.

It's the color as used in a context. To put it into better perspective, you will notice that both Carvin and Bill Lawrence make double cream pickups, because tin both cases they don't use 12 pole pieces, so the pickups would not be easily confused for a DiMarzio.

So make a pickups with dual blades, and you are OK to use double cream.

Here's two examples:

[paulyy]

They came up with the idea, or at least where the ones to develop it and patent it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what patents are for. If you have a new or novel idea, and get a patent, it affords you some time to make your product without the competition copying your idea.

They based some of their most popular models on that patent like the Tone Zone and Norton.

Patents last for 20 years. This patent was filed July 1983, and was granted February of 1985. That's 24 years ago, so it has since expired.

Thats a really good point. I forgot to look at that way.

[eggman6]

The context doesn't stop it from being ridiculous. In reference to cream bobbins.