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A new model the impedance of a humbucker, compared to measurements

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  • A new model the impedance of a humbucker, compared to measurements

    One can attempt to model the circuit of a humbucker as an inductor with the resistance of the coil in series and with a capacitance and another resistance in parallel. This second resistance attempts to account for the losses due to eddy currents in the cores. This model does not work very well; one way of describing its inaccuracies is this: the the measurements, when compared to the model, appear to show that the inductance varies with frequency. Measurements with an LCR meter indicate something similar.

    [A note about modeling electronic things: Maxwell's equations imply the concepts of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The ideal components used in circuit analysis are based on these concepts. All actual components are more complicated, having, at least to some degree, all three properties. Modeling a pickup means finding a circuit of ideal components that describes the behavior of the pickup with reasonable accuracy.]

    So another way of looking at this is that one expects that there is one or more essential components missing from the model described in the first paragraph. That is, the impedance of the pickup, when measured across frequency, appears to imply a varying inductance, but the inclusion of the correct additional components should lead to good agreement without resorting to frequency variable components.

    The rest of this post is a summary of the topics that need to be discussed later in order to show that the idea in the previous paragraph is correct. First are the measurements. They use the pickup meter described in Joe's discussion on designing an LCR meter. These new measurements include the phase of the impedance in addition to its amplitude. The phase might not be essential, but it does provide independent information and helps verify conclusions about the accuracy of the pickup model.

    Next is the new model of the circuit for a pickup. It is based on the model for a non-ideal transformer. The magnetizing inductance from this model is the inductance of the pickup coil. This model also has an inductor which accounts for the leakage flux. A pickup has a lot of leakage flux because the cores are open, and so this inductance can be very large. In applying this model to a pickup, the effect of the eddy currents in the cores is represented by a resistive load on a one turn secondary. The inductance accounting for the flux leakage appears in series with this load, and it alters the effect of the eddy currents as a function of frequency.

    Third, it is necessary to compare the predictions of this new model with the measurements. The effect of the leakage flux inductor is to improve the agreement between the model and the measurement. This is convincing evidence that the model has a physical basis. That is, it tells us how the pickup circuit works. Thus, from my point of view, saying the pickup has frequency variable inductance is a measurement issue rather than a useful way of describing how the circuit works.

    The final topic concerns developing a method of deriving the values of the components in the model, as implied by the measurements, by means of a software technique. If successful, this would be one way to complete the pickup measuring process, and possibly make a practical effective instrument.

  • #2
    measurements

    Using a hobbyist USB oscilloscope+signal generator, I generated impedance & phase plots for an SK bridge P90 that has no baseplate, i.e., the metal is either windings, pole screws, or mounting screws.

    The signal generator fed a 10k resistor connected to the P90 and the signal was sampled across both sides of the resistor.

    The upper trace corresponds to impedance, the lower is phase.

    From about 100Hz to 400Hz, you see a purely inductive straight slope; phase shift is relatively constant as well. Above 400Hz, it flattens out, perhaps from eddy current effects. Above 20kHz, it looks like capacitive reactance dominates.

    Shipped from http://www.syscompdesign.com, the USB scope+probes is about $230, has dual trace, FFT, impedance network analysis, and an arbitrary signal generator.

    Usable bandwidth is 2MHz. Software runs on Windoze, Mac, and Linux, is open source, written in Tcl/Tk.
    Attached Files
    "Det var helt Texas" is written Nowegian meaning "that's totally Texas." When spoken, it means "that's crazy."

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting stuff from both of you.

      That USB oscilloscope looks interesting.. and runs on Macs!
      It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


      http://coneyislandguitars.com
      www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

      Comment


      • #4
        Revised P90 measurements

        Um, ignore that first screen capture. I just installed the revised scope software that has improved resolution and screen scaling on frequency sweeps.

        That SK P90 trace looks more like the typical 'V' -- its unloaded resonance frequency is about 7.25kHz through a 9.09 kOhm resistor.

        If I were more industrious, I'd calculate an average inductance from the line slope between 100 and 1000 Hz.


        Base measurements:
        Rdc: 8.99 kOhms
        inductance: 8.49H @ 1000 Hz
        Rac: 15.72 kOhms

        Looky:



        -drh
        Attached Files
        "Det var helt Texas" is written Nowegian meaning "that's totally Texas." When spoken, it means "that's crazy."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by salvarsan View Post
          I just installed the revised scope software...
          Looks like a good system, and cheaper than mine. Why not build up a I-V circuit and get actual impedance values directly?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
            Looks like a good system, and cheaper than mine.
            There were several in that price range,
            but only one with open source application software.

            Why not build up a I-V circuit and get actual impedance values directly?
            Not a chance.

            Laziness follows too fast behind cheapness with me,
            especially when the chore is already done computationally.

            OTOH, what kind of an I-V circuit did you have in mind?

            -drh
            "Det var helt Texas" is written Nowegian meaning "that's totally Texas." When spoken, it means "that's crazy."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by salvarsan View Post
              Not a chance.

              Laziness follows too fast behind cheapness with me,
              especially when the chore is already done computationally.

              OTOH, what kind of an I-V circuit did you have in mind?

              -drh
              The I-V circuit would be used between the pickup and your measurement system. It would allow to get accurate impedance values at all frequencies. This was described in Joe Gwinn's discussion on designing an LCR meter. I will be posting my circuit later (tonight or tomorrow).

              Comment


              • #8
                Measurig the pickup impedance

                The system for measuring pickup impedance, as discussed in the first post of this discussion, has two parts:
                1.) An I-V circuit (http://www.naic.edu/~sulzer/ivSchem2.png)
                2.) A Mac laptop running Electroacoustics Toolbox (Faber Acoustical).

                The circuit is almost identical to one posted in the thread on designing LCR meters. The difference is that the follower on the output of the I-V op amp has been replaced with a unity gain inverter. Since the I-V op amp inverts, the two inversions give a non-inverted signal, better for phase display.

                The software is the next step up from the SignalScope Pro software that I was using before. EaTb performs cross-spectral analysis, allowing phase measurements, as well as amplitude, to be made using a random noise signal as input to the I-V circuit.
                The specific measurement type used is transfer function, a ratio of voltage to voltage. The impedance magnitude is obtained by multiplying by the value of the resistor in the feedback loop of the I-V op amp.

                The generator signal and the output of the I-V are connected to the two input channels. Fourier analysis is used to get the amplitude and phase of the transfer function as a function of frequency. Data are summed for about 1.5 minutes in order to get very accurate results.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Measurements compared to the simple model

                  The simple model described in the first post is an inductor with a resistance in series, a capacitor in parallel, and a resistor also in parallel. This plot (http://www.naic.edu/~sulzer/hbAmplitude.png) shows the measured impedance of a Japanese humbucker compared to this model. The parameters of model were determined in this way:
                  1. The series resistance was measured (8.5K).
                  2. The inductance was adjusted to get a good match at low frequencies (4.5H).
                  3. The capacitance was adjusted to give the correct peak frequency (29pf).
                  4. The parallel resistance was adjusted to give the peak impedance magnitude (875K).

                  But nevertheless, the model does not fit very well. How can one bring down the impedance of the model between two and fourteen KHz in order to match the measurements?

                  The phase is shown here: http://www.naic.edu/~sulzer/hbPhase.png. Both the model and the measurements have zero phase at zero Hz as expected for a resistance. Both lines rise together as the impedance goes inductive with increasing frequency. But the model rises higher than the measurement. The measurement is more heavily damped; that is, it has a smaller resistor across it. But lowering the value of the parallel resistor in the model will lower the peak, making the high frequency match even worse. How can one resolve this discrepancy? It is necessary to find a better model.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
                    The simple model described in the first post is an inductor with a resistance in series, a capacitor in parallel, and a resistor also in parallel. ...

                    But nevertheless, the model does not fit very well. How can one bring down the impedance of the model between two and fourteen KHz in order to match the measurements?

                    ... Both the model and the measurements have zero phase at zero Hz as expected for a resistance. Both lines rise together as the impedance goes inductive with increasing frequency. But the model rises higher than the measurement. The measurement is more heavily damped; that is, it has a smaller resistor across it. But lowering the value of the parallel resistor in the model will lower the peak, making the high frequency match even worse. How can one resolve this discrepancy? It is necessary to find a better model.
                    One problem is that eddy current losses vary with the square root of frequency, which cannot be represented accurately with standard RLC circuit elements.

                    One way to tell if this is the cause is to match the curves at low frequencies and plot the difference between curves as a function of the square root of frequency.

                    Lemme's most recent monograph on guitar pickups uses two inductors in series, one of which is paralleled with a resistor to represent the eddy current loss. I don't know how well this model approximates reality, but it's something to try. More inductors and resistors should allow closer approximation, but there may be better ways to model eddy currents in Spice.

                    He does not say if the two inductors have any mutual inductance, but I would think that they do not because mutual inductance would make this into an autotransformer that would convert the resistor across one inductor into an equivalent resistor over the entire coil.

                    http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

                    http://www.gitarrenelektronik.de/

                    Lemme's original monograph on guitar pickups was innocent of eddy currents, and the main difference between old and new is the addition of the discussion of eddy currents.


                    I googled on "eddy current spice model" and got lots of hits. Here is one:

                    http://fmtt.com/Transformer%20SPICE%...%202-14-08.pdf

                    They use the inductors and resistors model.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joe Gwinn View Post
                      One problem is that eddy current losses vary with the square root of frequency...

                      Thanks Joe, I have not looked at Lemme's stuff for several years (oh, maybe longer); so I will look at that and the Spice models. The thing about eddy current models is that they depend upon what the rest of the circuit is. A transformer that can be pretty accurately modeled as having perfect coupling between primary and secondary is one thing, but a pickup with short open cores and a coil with many many layers is very different. The data indicate that the effect of the eddy currents is decreasing with frequency. And that makes sense using an analogy with an imperfectly coupled transformer with an inductor in series with the secondary (or transformed back to the primary) with a resistance as a load. There are still two posts coming that explain this better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Joe,

                        I read Lemme's section on eddy currents. He claims that they add another 6 db/octave to the high frequency rolloff, and his equivalent circuit is intended to exhibit this property. This is not what I expect, but it is not something I can check with the pickup used here because its resonant frequency is too high. (I do have others, though.)

                        I also wonder about the 12 db/octave he discusses for pickups without eddy losses included, because the pickup capacitance should not really be independent of the series resistance of the coil. If you add in the cable capacitance, sure, and that might be what he is doing. But who knows, he does not show actual measurements in that article, just generic drawings.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We really need a meta-thread on this subject.
                          -Brad

                          ClassicAmplification.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RedHouse View Post
                            We really need a meta-thread on this subject.
                            Oops. I really screwed the pooch by posting empirical data, didn't I?

                            -drh
                            "Det var helt Texas" is written Nowegian meaning "that's totally Texas." When spoken, it means "that's crazy."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
                              Thanks Joe, I have not looked at Lemme's stuff for several years (oh, maybe longer); so I will look at that and the Spice models. The thing about eddy current models is that they depend upon what the rest of the circuit is. A transformer that can be pretty accurately modeled as having perfect coupling between primary and secondary is one thing, but a pickup with short open cores and a coil with many many layers is very different. The data indicate that the effect of the eddy currents is decreasing with frequency. And that makes sense using an analogy with an imperfectly coupled transformer with an inductor in series with the secondary (or transformed back to the primary) with a resistance as a load. There are still two posts coming that explain this better.
                              The inductors in the eddy current model of transformers appear to be leakage inductance bridged by resistors, all cleverly designed to allow a lumped RLC model to approximate the physics of something that is none of the above.

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