Coil offset for neck pickups?

[kevinT]

What are folks' opinion on which coil should be favored in neck pickups to avoid the mud. ... and why offset that coil as opposed to the other?

Or do you offset the neck at all?

[Zhangliqun]

I do it. I prefer to make the screw coil the stronger coil, I think that part of the string is a little more "cold-mountain-stream" sounding than the slug coil, which starts leaning a bit toward a middle pu sound.

[Possum]

...

You should do an experiment, wind a screw pole identical the slug, wind one alittle hotter then one with a big offset and then swap them out and listen. Listen real hard to how it sounds when you roll the volume pot back, you'll be surprised....

[RedHouse]

I agree with Zhangliqun, on the neck 'bucker making the screw pole dominant sounds better IMHO as long as one isn't doing the Peter Green thing and rotating the pickup.
(I refer to coil offset as Dominant Coil)

You should do an experiment, wind a screw pole identical the slug, wind one alittle hotter then one with a big offset and then swap them out and listen.....

Or ...wind just one test pickup and use it for this type of testing, doing this will save a lot of time swapping pickups in/out:



Here's one I made for my use:



Here's a temp backplate used for testing on Les Pauls. The switch mounts on this backplate and the player can reach back and switch it until a decision on the sound is made, then I just note which switch setting was chosen and wind the pickup accordingly.

I purposly didn't mark the switch positions so a player will have to listen and decide, no visual clues.



Go to my site for a micro-blog on this test fixture: http://classicamplification.net/Pick...ilsTestRig.htm

[Jim Darr]

Brad,

That is a very good idea. I’ve done something similar by changing the wire connection manually…but the switch is a great concept, especially the “blind” test. Thanks for the drawing and pics.

Jim

[kevinT]

+ 1 Thanks.... very informative

[Joe Gwinn]

I agree with Zhangliqun, on the neck 'bucker making the screw pole dominant sounds better IMHO as long as one isn't doing the Peter Green thing and rotating the pickup.
(I refer to coil offset as Dominant Coil)




Or ...wind just one test pickup and use it for this type of testing, doing this will save a lot of time swapping pickups in/out:

This approach puts a shorted 200-turn secondary on one coil or the other. I would suggest a different switching arrangement, one that never causes a shorted secondary. The shorted secondary has to affect tone, thus spoiling the test.

[RedHouse]

....This approach puts a shorted 200-turn secondary on one coil or the other. I would suggest a different switching arrangement, one that never causes a shorted secondary....

I just knew at least one of a few folks here wouldn't (couldn't) resist a typical "this ain't right" post. Sure you can wire the switch differently, have at it, the idea is to make one test pickup instead of winding 3 test pickups and swapping them in/out for hours.

...The shorted secondary has to affect tone, thus spoiling the test...

Don't worry Joe, the test is not spoiled because it's not about tone and all the reasons why one wouldn't do this kind of thing for tone.

I'm guessing you missed my point that it can save much time winding/swapping pickups ...just to find out if a player prefers a dominant coil or matched coil set. Try it before you anylize it away, it just works.

Maybe to help get past an EE mind-set rut (no offense intended of course), try looking at the testbucker as if it was one of these:



these are very uncomfortable to wear, way too noisy to wear at the mall, won't get one any trendy-fashion points, definately won't get one a date, and most likely has some Pediatrist related technical reasons why it shouldn't be used ...but ...it works for what it's meant to be used for. It's not meant to tell us if one likes arched soles or flat, square toed or round, leather or plastic ...ad infinitum ...ad nausium.

It's a simple tool for a simple test and for the few minutes one works with a simple test device like this Brannoc device it can deliver parameters that would likely need time consuming "shoe-swapping" to provide ...likewise the point of this testbucker. It's not about tone.

After you (quickly) get a player's preference for a balanced or dominant coil platform, then you wind proper coils focusing on tone. Makes for a much shorter day.

[Possum]

....

Its really not an ideal way to test this out. When you are tapping for a smaller coil size you're forgetting that you are testing a coil that still has another coil wrapped around it, active, shorted or not. Maybe you won't hear any different through some little test amp, but little things you don't hear at test volumes you DO hear at gig/recording levels. I did my testing the hard way and came to my own results. Note what I said about how the pickup sounds when the volume pot isn't dimed all the time, thats where you'll hear the true character when testing this kind of thing.

[Joe Gwinn]

I just knew at least one of a few folks here wouldn't (couldn't) resist a typical "this ain't right" post. Sure you can wire the switch differently, have at it, the idea is to make one test pickup instead of winding 3 test pickups and swapping them in/out for hours.



Don't worry Joe, the test is not spoiled because it's not about tone and all the reasons why one wouldn't do this kind of thing for tone.

I'm guessing you missed my point that it can save much time winding/swapping pickups ...just to find out if a player prefers a dominant coil or matched coil set. Try it before you analyze it away, it just works.

I well understand the reason to build the A/B switch. There was a thread on this regarding the audibility of different kinds of tone-control capacitor. The thread died down, but I think the conclusion was that the difference was inaudible. Search the archive for "double blind study" to find the thread.

However, if the switching does anything more than make the switch between A and B (or A/B/C), the test is spoiled because we are no longer comparing A to B to C on an apples-to-apples basis.

Specifically, in A and C, one coil or the other is loaded with a 200-turn shorted secondary, while in position B (and in real use) neither coil is shorted.

To solve the problem rearrange the switching to either never short or to always short.

Now, the always-short option has a different set of issues, as shorting does change the tone, and the relevance to unshorted pickups will be debated.

[David Schwab]

Now, the always-short option has a different set of issues, as shorting does change the tone, and the relevance to unshorted pickups will be debated.

That's easy to test though. Wind up a regular pickup, and then wind a secondary coil over it that is never part of the audio signal. Then wire a switch to close that loop.

So in this test the primary coils are never altered, only having the secondary shorted or not shorted.

Bill Lawrence actually had a patent on a pickup with a closed loop secondary coil, which was also tunable with a variable resistor.

I agree that the test pickup above needs to be switched differently to be a valid test, otherwise when you wind the pickup for real, it wont sound the same as the test pickup.

When I want to test offsets, I just wind up a series of coils and swap them back and forth. But then I'm not assembling a humbucker on the baseplate and all that so it doesn't take as long.

[RedHouse]

I well understand the reason to build the A/B switch. There was a thread on this regarding the audibility of different kinds of tone-control capacitor. The thread died down, but I think the conclusion was that the difference was inaudible. Search the archive for "double blind study" to find the thread.

No need, thanks, another thing altogether.

However, if the switching does anything more than make the switch between A and B (or A/B/C), the test is spoiled because we are no longer comparing A to B to C on an apples-to-apples basis.

Specifically, in A and C, one coil or the other is loaded with a 200-turn shorted secondary, while in position B (and in real use) neither coil is shorted.

To solve the problem rearrange the switching to either never short or to always short.

...

I don't think you're getting it (or trying it, which is the real shame here but never mind). Did ya know they say Bumblebees can't fly.... ...not to worry, no harm done.

....Now, the always-short option has a different set of issues, as shorting does change the tone, and the relevance to unshorted pickups will be debated....

Still not getting it, did you try it, or just shooting at it to flex the intellect? (no disrespect intended) trying it would be good.

....shorting does change the tone, and the relevance to unshorted pickups will be debated.

Well Duh, did I mention it's not about tone at this point? (lets review...yep did).

Mounting a coil(s) on a baseplate effects the tone, adjusting poles effects tone, mounting a pickup in a guitar effects the tone, resting ones hand on the top of a pickup while playing effects the tone, we all know everything effects the tone but we don't let that stop us from trying things.
(well I don't)

...I agree that the test pickup above needs to be switched differently to be a valid test, otherwise when you wind the pickup for real, it wont sound the same as the test pickup...

Valid test? never mind, go forth and wind. Silly me, what was I thinking, oh yeah, it's not a tone test it's a tool to determine if a player likes a dominant coil or not, yeah that's the ticket.

...Wind up a regular pickup, and then wind a secondary coil over it that is never part of the audio signal. Then wire a switch to close that loop.
...

Nope, someone will say the added coil will cause flux inhibition or stray eddy current enhancement problems or some other overcomplication of a simplicity thereby invalidating the ..."test".

(BTW; is that shoe thingy a "test" or a "tool"? ...I see it as a tool)

That's the thing about the internet, if you were here in this room right now I could hand you the guitar this pickup is installed in and say "play it, and tell me it doesn't work for this test" but on the internet, it's invald because of thinking.
(not trying it, just thinking it).

Sometimes this place gets tired, think I'll take a break.

[David Schwab]

Nope, someone will say the added coil will cause flux inhibition or stray eddy current enhancement problems or some other overcomplication of a simplicity thereby invalidating the ..."test".

No, Brad, YOU are missing the point. Your test pickup will NOT sound like a regular pickup with outset coils. Shorting the outside wrap together will change the resonant peak of the pickup and might roll off top end. It does invalidate the test.

It's not a bad idea, just change the switching arrangement. Don't short the coil, just disconnected the ends.

And getting defensive doesn't help anyone. People here are trying to help you by explaining a flaw in your setup, and yes it is a real issue, even if you don't think so.

The point is that your setup will never sound exactly like winding the coils to the two different outsets because the shorted turn is altering the tone. You are having people listen to someone entirely different.

[Possum]

....

Yeah, if you want to trim off a noticeable amount of treble from a coil, and have room, wind a coil on top of your existing coil and solder the out coil ends together and ground it, as mentioned Bill Lawrence did this in some designs. Its a well known principle. I used to use it once in awhile but it doesn't really do this in a pleasant musical manner in my opinion and so I don't use that trick anymore. there's better ways to do the same thing....

[RedHouse]

...No, Brad, YOU are missing the point....

Try it with any switching arrangement you want, you will be able to tell if you prefer a balanced or dominant coil set. Peace-out bro's.