Heelp!! Need some advices for making 8 string multiscaleguitar PU

[SINNguitars]

Hey guys!

I'm new here, a guitarbuilder from Finland. Thank God i found this forum This is very cool!

The thing is that i have never made PU's, actually never "wasted" a time to even think about it. I'v been building guitars for some years now and now i'm making a prototype of 8 string f*nnedfret guitar. I need a PU's for this guitar, and i thought that i try to wind it by myself.

Here are the parts i have bought for it:
-5mm polepieces
-ceramic magnet bars 85 x 12.6 x 5mm (too short for bridge PU )
-AWG42 wire
-homemade wooden PU bobbins (only "flat surface plates")
-baseplates made from 1mm thick Brass

I'm looking for hot humbucker sound, i like dimarzio evolution, something like that sound would be cool.

Now, can you guys give me some advice what to do and what not to do to wind a decent PU's with these parts i have?!
-can i make a good humbucker without screws, if i use only these slug polepieces. or should i get screws too, whats the difference!?
-Is it ok to wind the coils on the slugs straightly, or should i make a wooden core for the PU's!?
-And the ceramic magnet is too short for the bridge PU, what if i cut a 10mm piece of magnetbar and clue it to another bar, so it would be then the needed 95mm long?!
-How many turns AWG42 for bridge and neck PU to make evolution kind of PU!?
-aaarghhh... all advices would be needed!

thanx, and please check the dimensions and parts JPG's I attached. there is also pic of the 8 string guitar proto.

-Mikko

[Peter Naglitsch]

A few quick relies:

Hey guys!

I'm new here, a guitarbuilder from Finland. Thank God i found this forum This is very cool!

Welcome. Nice to see another winder from “up north”. I’m in Sweden

-can i make a good humbucker without screws, if i use only these slug polepieces. or should i get screws too, whats the difference!?

No problem. I call my “metal” pickup “The Slugger™” as it pack a lot of punch and only have slug pole pieces...

-Is it ok to wind the coils on the slugs straightly, or should i make a wooden core for the PU's!?

Once again, no problem. It would be a lot like making a fender style Single coil, although for a humbucker

-And the ceramic magnet is too short for the bridge PU, what if i cut a 10mm piece of magnetbar and clue it to another bar, so it would be then the needed 95mm long?!

One of my magnet supplier told me that if you but two magnets against each other like you suggest they form one single uniform magnet field just like if they were in fact one single magnet. So if you are able to cut a brittle ceramic magnet is is perfectly doable. But I have no idea of how a ceramic magnet will react if you cut it (heat, mechanical abuse etc…)

-How many turns AWG42 for bridge and neck PU to make evolution kind of PU!?

With a DC resistance of 13.84 kohms for the bridge version I highly doubt that the DiMarzio Evolution is wound with AWG42. I guess AWG43. Just get as much wire on there as possible and you will probably be fine. Remember that this is your first pickup and that is a challenge by itself. You are at the same time trying to make something not all guys on this forum would take on. So if you get a decent sound be glad. If you get a really good sound… well then you have been lucky or have a real talent for this.

-aaarghhh

Probbaly not the last time you will say that

PM me if you need some assistance as we are no too far away from each other.

[Jim Darr]

Sounds like a great project. If you can get #43 wire I’d try it instead of the #42. But you should be able to get good sounds from your #42 wire …just fill up the bobbins. Try the #42 first to see if you like the results.

One very important thing when you assemble the bobbins is to make sure they are evenly spaced (top-to-bottom & side-to-side). This will prevent wobble as you wind them.

In addition, make sure that the flatwork and pole pieces are assembled securely. Many folks use cyanoacrylate glue or dip the unwound bobbin in lacquer to secure the assembly, but this is with pole pieces and Forbon (Vulcanized Fiber)...I'm not sure what is best for wood. With a bobbin that long, made out of wood, etc, I’d wind very slowly and wear eye protection should the thing come apart while winding.

Also make sure your pole pieces are steel slugs and not magnets. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

Jim

[Seth Leigh]

Actually, would there be any problem with using magnetic slugs instead of just iron slugs and a bar magnet? What problem would there be in putting two strat-like single coils next to each other with the magnets in one coil having north facing up, and the coil next to it having south facing up? It would certainly simplify his problem with his bar magnets not being long enough.

[Jim Darr]

You could do exactly that. I’ve done it before to color the sonic response.

The same coil with magnetic Alnico rods, will sound differently than with a magnet(s) under the coil using steel slugs. It is all a matter of tone. Each approach sounds different all else being the same.

Jim

[David Schwab]

The Evolution uses a different gauge of wire on each bobbin.

The notes I have say:

Red/Black coil, 6337 turns of 43AWG
White/Green coil, 6552 turns of 44AWG

I haven't tried it, but that should get you in the ball park.

That info is from DGB Studios

[SINNguitars]

big thanx to everybody!

Thanx, this is great, very quick replies. And Peter Naglitsch - i will contact you privately if i have some questions, thanx for that also

I'm still wondering that should i then buy more thinner wire, to get more output for the pick up?! or what if i increase the space of wire from 7mm to 8 mm, and wound more turns.!? Is there any basic rule that how many turns the neck PU's coil should be smaller than bridge to get balanced PU's?

Ok, last... does about 6500 turns sound ok for bridge, if i start with that!?

-Mikko

...and again thanx, i will keep you guys updated about this project.

[mikej]

I recently cut several ceramic magnets with my Dremel tool, they have a nice diamond cutting wheel that goes through the ceramic quite easily. I clamped the magnets between 2 pieces of aluminum to act as a heat sink and used a router base on the Dremel, bearing on the edge of one of the aluminum plates. I got a nice straight cut with only minor chipping when the wheel went through. Mike j

[tedmich]

I'd vote for a well shielded single coils (although it looks like you're wedded to HBs!) At 8 strings with a long scale its going to sound thick as a brick...but all the kids are Meshuggah about that sound...

I find tiny individual N45's (1/32 x 1/8) and 1018 steel (>97% Fe) pole pieces allow a lot of flexibility in design, no need to cut or find long bar magnets (cutting some non- ceramic magnets is near impossible for me)

[Peter Naglitsch]

If you can fit 6500 turns on the bridge bobbin you will have quite some output, bearing in mind you have a ceramic magnet that also boost the output. If you do not need a monster output I'd try something a bit less, like 5500 for the bridge and 5000 for the neck. That will give you a bit more clarity. And most people playing music that requires a 8-string usually have enough gain in their amp. They don't really need that high output.

One thought:
As you will wind directly on the bare magnets you will need to insulate them awith masking tape or similar to prevent a shourt out in th ecoil in the future. You will also be able to get more wire on that coil compared to a traditional HB bobbin as that one (the trad HB) have some plastic around the slugs, thus building up the size and alowing a bit less wire on there. So I suggest that you just try your AWG42, count how many turns you get and listen to the sound.

[SINNguitars]

setting up winding machine.

If you can fit 6500 turns on the bridge bobbin you will have quite some output, bearing in mind you have a ceramic magnet that also boost the output. If you do not need a monster output I'd try something a bit less, like 5500 for the bridge and 5000 for the neck. That will give you a bit more clarity. And most people playing music that requires a 8-string usually have enough gain in their amp. They don't really need that high output.

One thought:
As you will wind directly on the bare magnets you will need to insulate them awith masking tape or similar to prevent a shourt out in th ecoil in the future. You will also be able to get more wire on that coil compared to a traditional HB bobbin as that one (the trad HB) have some plastic around the slugs, thus building up the size and alowing a bit less wire on there. So I suggest that you just try your AWG42, count how many turns you get and listen to the sound.

Ok! I'll try something like 5500 turns for bridge. ...now i'm gathering stuff for pick up winder. Hopefully next week i'm able to wind my first PU!

Something came my mind.. that how much winding "pattern" affects the tone. For example: If I have a lindy fralin single coil and i know the exact number of turns and have exact the same alnico magnets, and i wind a coil tightly/systematicly enough... will it sound like Lindy's!?

-Mikko

[SINNguitars]

Now Winding!

Hey people!

OK, now i got my winding machine build and it works very well!

Now i'm a littlebit ashamed to ask you this question, at this moment but... does all humbuckers have to have coils that are reverse wounded?! i mean that if you look the humbucker from it's face up, is the other coil wounded clockwise and other counterclockwise? This is now big question for me because i cannot just flip the bobbin upside down (check the pic, and you'll see why... thanx to home made wooden 8 string PU bobbins with glued slugs)... so i need to know this question a.s.a.p. I have already wounded bridge and neck PU's other coils in counterclockwise. i'm a littlebit confused with this, because for example if you view this page Guitar Wiring Site - Humbucker Construction and check the first pic, both coils are wound in same direction, and finish ends are connecte together to connect coils in series.

I wound 5200 turns/ 6,78kOhm for brige PU's coil and 5002 turns/5,72kOhm for neck PU's coil.

uhhh... maybe i'm too tired to understand anything right now...

[David Schwab]

Hey people!

OK, now i got my winding machine build and it works very well!

The winder looks great!

Now i'm a littlebit ashamed to ask you this question, at this moment but... does all humbuckers have to have coils that are reverse wounded?!

No, you wind both coils in the same direction. You wire the two finish leads together.

[Peter Naglitsch]

In his book Jason Lollar explains it with the words "path to ground" and not winding direction. I think that explains things a so much better. This means that you can wind them the same direction, but have the starting lead of one coil conected to ground and the end lead of the other connected to ground (OK OK with the addition of "the other" coil in between). If you have any problems understanding my rahter vague description I might be able to draw up something that explains it. Or do a search. I'm sure it has been covered here before.

[SINNguitars]

The winder looks great!



No, you wind both coils in the same direction. You wire the two finish leads together.

Ok, now it's clear. Today i'll wind other coils for these humbuckers! When i pot these coils, i only have parafin... how necessary is to use that 20% of beeswax?!

...i ordered 2 pick up books from amazon, have to check them out with a thought.

very huge thanx to anyone whose been advising me with this nerve wrecking project ...i'll post pics as soon as i get these babies ready.