Amazing eBay Find!

[soundmasterg]

I want to add one more comment then I promise I'll shut up
My Dad is retired Army Signal Corps. intelligence, 40 years, I grew up on Army and Airbases, Army brat :-) When my Dad retired and was a school teacher in Miami, teaching anthropology, he knew another retired Army guy there who taught also. Real square guy, no sense of humor, lifer type. Kinda sounds like my Dad too :-) Anyway, my Dad got to know the guy, trading old Army and War stories. Turns out this guy was on the recovery crew at the Roswell incident, I kid you not. Folks, those were NOT crash test dummies they recovered, and it was no balloon crash. So why is SETI looking spending millions of dollars looking for intelligent life out in space, when these little grey short fuckers are HERE and apparently not great drivers, crashing into the ground etc. Answer me that?

Yeah I heard one of them was asking around looking to buy a Daihatsu.

Greg

[David Schwab]

So why is SETI looking spending millions of dollars looking for intelligent life out in space, when these little grey short fuckers are HERE and apparently not great drivers, crashing into the ground etc. Answer me that?

You know there were three crashes at Roswell at that time, and more at other places too. I think it's partly because we were trying to shoot some down, and also I have a feeling some were crashed intentionally.

Also the device at Roswell was triangular and not disc shaped, but "flying disk" is what they called them at the time. Even Kenneth Arnold, the guy who coined the phrase "flaying saucer" saw triangular shaped devices.

Yeah the ballon and crash test dummy story was stupid, didn't match any eye witness testimony, and was clearly a retraction of the official story that that was posted at the time!

[Possum]

....

I've read some plausible information that the Army Air Corps figured out that their radar gear could jam those vehicles and make them crash, and yes there were two that crashed that day, pretty near eachother, I think there was another one that was further away, I'm kinda vague on that one. I watched the History Channel awhile ago and there has been another guy come forward who was involved, alot of these guys are hitting their late 70's and 80's so they are not afraid of reprisals or threats at their age, so more of them have come forward in recent years. I did a search on the internet a couple years ago using the name of the guy my Dad knew, but he never publicly mentioned his involvement, probably never will, hard core "lifer" type. Its too bad that "Roswell" has been made into such a public cartoon by the Air Force, and the conspiracy nuts, you say that word and people just turn away. On another History Channel show someone used the Freedom of Information Act and found out that alot of the real early UFO "contactees" in the 1950's who headed up UFO clubs etc. were actually CIA agents, planted to spread crazy stories and make the whole thing into a joke! For real, this really surprised me, I had no idea... There is still alot of this being done, I wouldn't surprised if alot of the faked UFO videos on YouTube are coming from guys who have government ID cards :-)

[Joe Gwinn]

Joe: I got my kit ready to go, send ticket please :-)

Gateway unidirectional. Return ticket hard to come by.

Well there IS fairly solid evidence that ET's do communicate through thought.

I don't know how we would know about ETs, but telepathy between humans has been posited for at least centuries if not millenia.

Let's assume for the moment that it's true, that a small fraction of humans have this ability. The fraction cannot exceed 1%, but that's enough. The people having this ability would be following the rise of Science and Scientific method, along with everybody else. At least one such person would have applied the scientific method to this ability, trying to deduce its true nature, in exact parallel to how electromagnetic radiation (radio) was discovered. The person that succeeded would become famous, and join the pantheon that includes Maxwell, Lord Kelvin, Heinrich Hertz, et al. But it didn't happen.

Phillip Corso, if you know about that guy, his background is flawless, not a nut case but a high ranking officer in charge or Foreign Technology dept. something or other in the Army, who was given Roswell technology to dispense to US corporations to back engineer and disperse into the culture. Micro chip technology, lasers, velcro, optical fiber were among the materials recovered they back engineered and we benefitted from. No one has ever been able to debunk his story and all his credentials are of the highest order and documented, he was an advisor to President Truman I believe, or was it Eisenhower, don't remember but his book is widely available. He is deceased now and wrote the book so his kids would know what he did back then. Anyway, one of the items recovered was a headband device they figured was used to control flight, they never did figure it out. He said it was meant to work with a brain other than human.

We actually know how each of these things were discovered, and they didn't just pop into existence.

A good thought experiment is to consider what Ben Franklin would have made of child's walkie talkie set. Ben would have been able to deduce that there was a range limit, with signals weakening with increased distance, and might have deduced that the inverse square law applied. He would have figured out that metals block the signal and non-metals do not (unless wet).

But he would not be able to figure out how it worked. For one thing, all the test equipment of his day required thousands of volts to work (think Leyden Jars and gold-leaf electrometers). He would not be able to even detect 9 volts.

And optical microscopes, even those of today, cannot resolve the detail on an integrated circuit, so an IC mostly just looks gray. The problem is that the features of an IC of present day manufacture are far smaller than the wavelength of light, so the limit is fundamental. One needs an electron microscope; the electron was discovered in 1897 by J J Thompson, a good century later, and the electron microscope was invented in 1931.

But the battery would have been very interesting. This could have been figured out and replicated. The battery was invented ten years after Ben Franklin's death by Volta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Volta, and the time was ripe. If Franklin had invented the battery, voltmeters would instead be franklinmeters.

I think there is ample evidence on our own planet as well as the moon and mars of higher technologies and archaeological remains of buildings etc. We can't even duplicate the megalithic structures that litter our own planet. I watched a show on Tihuanaco, (sorry I can't spell...) showing gigantic interlocking blocks of stone cut like they were machined, all perfectly identical, with complicated ways of interlocking, truly amazing. I knew about the site for years but never saw that field of giant stones that look like they are new, they are highly complex pieces of work we probably couldn't do today, and they are HUGE.

We do know how the ancients built things. It involves an amazing amount of labor, and some of the methods endure to this day when one needs to make a precisely flat surface for instance.

Take the Mayan monuments. We have reports written by Jesuit missionaries who witnessed the building of stone walls made of tightly fitting blocks interlocked but dry (no cement). How did they do it? They sprinkled sand on the bottom surface, set the top block down, picked it up again, and wherever the sand grains were crushed the chewed the limestone of the bottom block (or blocks) away by hammering it with a ball made of dolomite (a far harder kind of rock). This was repeated many many times, until the surfaces of the two stones mated perfectly. The Jesuit reported that this involved much sweating, grunting, and swearing.

"Moving Heavy Things", a child's book, is where I learned of the Jesuit report.

The Great Wall of China was probably made by a like process, and we have the records.

There are hundreds of anomalies on mars and the moon that may be misinterpretations but some are obviously not natural objects, many are rectangular patterns that look like building foundations or ancient city remains that look identical to satellite photos of earth archaeological sites. Now because this stuff isn't on THIS planet, then who made them? This site in a quick google has some cool photos I've not seen before:
http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/
some could be explained away I suppose, some of these guys are a little too rorshack inkblot minded for me but then you see things that are obviously not natural. There is plenty of stuff on the moon as well if you dig around you'll find good photos of that too.

It's like seeing shapes in clouds and tea leaves. Until we get there and check it out, I'll reserve judgement.

If one is of the mind that human beings are the only beings in the universe and that no other intelligent life exists in the almost infinite variety of planets and star systems out there, well these kind of people are going to have a rather hard time of it when some kind of contact actually is done out in the open.

Most scientists think that intelligent life will prove common, but that the distance to the nearest star having such life will be immense, all based on estimated probabilities and the vast scale of the universe.

Anyway, to me SETI is a huge waste of money, if they ever actually DID find an intelligent signal out there I don't think we'd hear about it, the military would be in there real fast and these scientists who think otherwise are dreamers who have no idea of the black world that exists in this and other countries. I find all this stuff fascinating and even more fascinating how human belief systems and dogma and religious beliefs are so narrow minded that its not really allowed for the individual to think outside their boxes :-) One is considered a nut case if they say no the world is NOT flat and the Earth isn't the center of the universe :-) I do believe alot of these vehicles sighted are military craft, even back engineered vehicles, but there are just too many sightings all over the world in every single country, it would mean that we or some other country has a massive armada fleet of gravity defying ships, now that to me is far fetched.....

I don't see how such monumental things could be kept secret for any length of time by any human organization, no matter how hard they tried.

[Joe Gwinn]

I've read some plausible information that the Army Air Corps figured out that their radar gear could jam those vehicles and make them crash, and yes there were two that crashed that day, pretty near each other, I think there was another one that was further away, I'm kinda vague on that one.

This cannot be true, even if the Air Corps people believed it. The problem with this story is that it implies that a civilization that achieved interstellar travel never could figure out electromagnetic interference (EMI) and electromagnetic compatibility (EMC). Google on EMI/EMC and you will be completely flooded.

Anyway, no airplane from earth would crash because of radar beams from the days of the Army Air Corps. There are very specific tests that all aircraft must pass before they will be allowed to fly.

Think of an aircraft carrier: The airplanes fly through powerful radar beams on every takeoff and landing. EMC/EMI for weapons is also a big issue. It's really annoying if one's own missiles go off right on the flight deck. Ruins the day.

Think of a large commercial airport: There are always a number of radars operating nearby, feeding data to the Air Traffic Control system.

[Possum]

...

Joe you defend the status quo. You should actually READ Corso's book before making such statements. Then I would listen to your opinion on that. The leap from vacuum tubes to transistors was a big one, I read that book a long time ago so can't defend Corso's details, and all the corporations get really pissed off when its suggested that they were given technology to back engineer, and claim ownership of the inventions. If Corso's book is true, this would be their expected reaction, eh? Why would a high ranking officer, a consultant to the president, who worked for an even higher very important officer, write such a book right before he died, "for his children." It makes no sense other than what he says is true. His book is not a "he said, she said" document, it is a detailed piece of work of what he personally did with a file cabinet full of artifacts he was given to work with.

Governments keep secrets quite well, why would the CIA plant people to portray the role of nut case "contactees" saying really extreme things and making themselves look ridiculous if there wasn't something behind the curtain they were defending against? There wasn't any black technologies at the time they were trying to protect, so why did they do this? This isn't something the History Channel made up, they named names and showed documents, they do their homework.

To say that ET's are so far advanced as to be faultless and invincible that no human technology or agency could hurt them is just flawed thinking. The truth is there have been hundreds of crashed discs and other shapes with ample evidence and first hand witnesseses involving expert observers, like military and police. You can do the old scientific two step backward dance thing and say oh well eyewitnesses are not reliable evidence, etc. etc. It can't exist therefore any events that are not explainable are impossible therefore they don't exist and not worth investigating. Its debunker thinking and flat earth policy :-) Explain why there are well documented examples of flying vehicles crashing to the ground with "little men"....before anyone on this earth HAD flying machines.

The fact is we don't know how the ancients built those things. We don't know how the pyramids were built. Those who say they know how, have tried to dupliate it on a tiny scale and failed. Those stones show evidence of MACHINING, not being whittled out with copper tools. There is a fairly recent book where a machinist went to some of these places and found incredible accuracy and evidence of machine tooling in the stones.

Puma Punku is the place I was trying remember at Tihuanaco, those blocks are amazing, they were made of a type of stone that require diamond cutting tools if you wanted to cut them in today's world. You really ought to actually LOOK at this stuff before passing judgement, but that is the "scientific method" of today, pass judgement before investigation, stay in the safe world of consensual "scientific" dogma. Science's biggest failure is when confronted by evidence that is outside its little world of dogma and peer cliques. Step outside that circle and you lose your grant, your tenure, your job. There are several good books on "forbidden achaeology," "forbidden science" out there and people who have lost their livelihoods because they dare to point out solid evidence that the accepted history of mankind is full of very large holes, you just can't get away with that in the academic world. Read those books instead of passing judgements founded what other people think rather than personal investigation.


Here is a video of Puma Punku, take a look at those blocks, they are not just square blocks, they have interlocking channels, indented stepped cuts, many have forms for pouring molten metal to lock the blocks together, which means that had some kind of onsite portable metal melting furnaces? Alot of those stones are identical, complicated, machine cuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPZpOAEm7mQ

Maybe actually go LOOK at those Mars anomalies, did you? Sure alot of it could be natural things, but did you see the image of a perfect circle with another perfect circle cut out of that and the whole thing tilted into the sand, thats a natural object? Show me a natural object that forms such a thing.

I'm not personally attacking you here, but your opinions are the expected answers, answers based on NOT investigating because you don't believe these things should be investigated because you believe they can't be real. This is what scientists do, the irony is that its not scientific method, as they would like to believe, its magical thinking of the worst kind really. Its too bad scientists don't get involved in these subjects more, but most of them are chicken shits and very close minded. I read an interesting study on what would happen to human beings if ETs DID land on the Earth, they wanted to know what group would have the most mental health problems from that kind of event. The answer surprised them but not me, the answer was the group that would be most affected were SCIENTISTS, now that I would like to see happen :-)

[Joe Gwinn]

Joe you defend the status quo. You should actually READ Corso's book before making such statements. Then I would listen to your opinion on that. The leap from vacuum tubes to transistors was a big one, I read that book a long time ago so can't defend Corso's details, and all the corporations get really pissed off when its suggested that they were given technology to back engineer, and claim ownership of the inventions. If Corso's book is true, this would be their expected reaction, eh? Why would a high ranking officer, a consultant to the president, who worked for an even higher very important officer, write such a book right before he died, "for his children." It makes no sense other than what he says is true. His book is not a "he said, she said" document, it is a detailed piece of work of what he personally did with a file cabinet full of artifacts he was given to work with.

I was very interested in flying saucers in the early 1960s, and read everything then available. My father was going to Washington, DC, on business back then, and took me along. So, I turned up at the main office of the main group investigating "aerial phenomena" of the day (I forget their name) to see what evidence they had. It was a bunch of obviously fake photographs. The most famous showed people on a ship looking at something, and something strange-looking in the air nearby. But the people on the ship were looking parallel to the sea surface, and not up at the thing in the sky. And the shadows didn't match: on the ship, they fell to one side, while on the thing they fell to the other side. Oops. And this was the best they had to offer.

Governments keep secrets quite well, why would the CIA plant people to portray the role of nut case "contactees" saying really extreme things and making themselves look ridiculous if there wasn't something behind the curtain they were defending against? There wasn't any black technologies at the time they were trying to protect, so why did they do this? This isn't something the History Channel made up, they named names and showed documents, they do their homework.

To the contrary, everything eventually leaks out. If we had been visited for hundreds of years, it would have leaked.

To say that ET's are so far advanced as to be faultless and invincible that no human technology or agency could hurt them is just flawed thinking. The truth is there have been hundreds of crashed discs and other shapes with ample evidence and first hand witnesses involving expert observers, like military and police. You can do the old scientific two step backward dance thing and say oh well eyewitnesses are not reliable evidence, etc. etc. It can't exist therefore any events that are not explainable are impossible therefore they don't exist and not worth investigating. Its debunker thinking and flat earth policy :-) Explain why there are well documented examples of flying vehicles crashing to the ground with "little men"....before anyone on this earth HAD flying machines.

Have you ever touched one of these disc fragments? How would you prove that they cannot be of earth origin?

As for far advanced and faultless, that was not the claim. The claim is that given that this is a solved problem under early 21st century Earth technology, which is not even close to achieving interstellar travel, it seems deeply unlikely that a civilization that had achieved interstellar travel would be troubled by such a problem.

The fact is we don't know how the ancients built those things. We don't know how the pyramids were built. Those who say they know how, have tried to duplicate it on a tiny scale and failed. Those stones show evidence of MACHINING, not being whittled out with copper tools. There is a fairly recent book where a machinist went to some of these places and found incredible accuracy and evidence of machine tooling in the stones.

We actually do know most of how they were built. For one thing, the Egyptians left lots of records. We even know the beer and grain rations of the workers, because the account books survive. As for copper tools, they had jewel teeth. Some of the stone saws survive. They were copper bands with jewels set in one edge, and were used to saw the stone. They had many other methods, some used to this day. For instance, dry wood can be crushed in a vice. If the crushed wood is pushed tightly into a row of holes in rock and subsequently kept wet, the wood will expand with sufficient force to split the stone.

Puma Punku is the place I was trying remember at Tihuanaco, those blocks are amazing, they were made of a type of stone that require diamond cutting tools if you wanted to cut them in today's world. You really ought to actually LOOK at this stuff before passing judgement, but that is the "scientific method" of today, pass judgement before investigation, stay in the safe world of consensual "scientific" dogma. Science's biggest failure is when confronted by evidence that is outside its little world of dogma and peer cliques. Step outside that circle and you lose your grant, your tenure, your job. There are several good books on "forbidden achaeology," "forbidden science" out there and people who have lost their livelihoods because they dare to point out solid evidence that the accepted history of mankind is full of very large holes, you just can't get away with that in the academic world. Read those books instead of passing judgements founded what other people think rather than personal investigation.

Well, I don't have any tenure to lose. But I can see how things were done back when.

There was a scanning electron microscope photo of a tooth in Science a few years ago showing that the tooth had been drilled. This was many millennia ago, in the stone age. This cinched the case that dentistry had been practiced since time literally before history. I gave the article to my Dentist.

Here is a video of Puma Punku, take a look at those blocks, they are not just square blocks, they have interlocking channels, indented stepped cuts, many have forms for pouring molten metal to lock the blocks together, which means that had some kind of onsite portable metal melting furnaces? Alot of those stones are identical, complicated, machine cuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPZpOAEm7mQ

The ancients in India made towers of cast iron. This was done on site for sure, because all the pours were welded together.

Maybe actually go LOOK at those Mars anomalies, did you? Sure alot of it could be natural things, but did you see the image of a perfect circle with another perfect circle cut out of that and the whole thing tilted into the sand, thats a natural object? Show me a natural object that forms such a thing.

Actually, I have seen many of them. The better ones are published in Sky and Telescope, which I get. What looks like a face or whatever with the telescopes of a prior day falls apart when viewed with the next generation of telescopes, with a factor better resolution.

I'm not personally attacking you here, but your opinions are the expected answers, answers based on NOT investigating because you don't believe these things should be investigated because you believe they can't be real. This is what scientists do, the irony is that its not scientific method, as they would like to believe, its magical thinking of the worst kind really. Its too bad scientists don't get involved in these subjects more, but most of them are chicken shits and very close minded. I read an interesting study on what would happen to human beings if ETs DID land on the Earth, they wanted to know what group would have the most mental health problems from that kind of event. The answer surprised them but not me, the answer was the group that would be most affected were SCIENTISTS, now that I would like to see happen :-)

My arguments are of implausibility, not impossibility. Nor can I prove that there is not an invisible elephant looking over my shoulder as I type. But it seems far simpler to assume no elephant.

[Possum]

.....

Well, these arguments always turn into a dead end. "Implausibility." Thats the whole problem right there. Thats the first thing people in this country are told to do since they can stand up on two feet, "there might be life out there but everything is too far away, they couldn't possibly visit Earth, we are too far away." "UFOs, ha ha ha, they are all faked or birds or swamp, gas, you're crazy." The CIA made sure thats what we are supposed to think by planting those guys to make the whole subject look ridiculous, its still being done, just look at the last Air Force Roswell report, they change their story every time. "Crash test dummies" don't look like short grey aliens with bulbous heads, and weren't use in that time period, "time compression" ????They had to invent a new phrase for lying, cute.

No I have never touched a piece of a disc, but I do know there IS Roswell debris that exists that they didn't get, that came from a deceased military guy who gave the parts to his son. His son in the mid-90s sent a handful of this stuff to Art Bell a widely known radio host who's show is still the biggest one out there, that deals in alternative subjects mainstream media shies away from. Art stashed the material in a secure location, then had then sent to a lab for analysis. This discussion is cool because its taking me back to information I didn't know back then, here are letters from the guy who sent Roswell debris to Art:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/shad...oswell039.html
Here is the transcript from the show about the analysis of the metals, the "shell" coating from the bottom of the craft, very intersting reading:
http://keelynet.com/rodbism.htm

My point about ancient civilizations wasn't that those places were built by aliens but that there were previous civilizations who apparently knew more than we do. Any of them easily could have been alien or alien enfluenced, their writings almost all mention people not of this planet. In India where these subjects aren't laughed at but are a part of their culture, history and even religion, their ancient writing which go back almost 10,000 years talk of flying ship, submarines, missiles, nuclear war between them and what was probably Atlantis. There exists a book about how to build "vimanas" or flying ships that go into great details, drawings done from the descripts look like conical shapes seen in some UFO sightings. Even our own Native American culture has an oral history of contact with "star people" which smart white scientists write off as fairy tales. Westerners are taught to laugh at these subjects and think of them as "implausible" yet we have ridiculous programs like SETI with annointed scientists who are looking using tools that are probably already outdated, and meanwhile ignoring thousands of years of history of sightings, contacts, and artwork depicting flying machines and people that were in them. Sumerian culture is full of this kind of thing. One of the more authoritive writers on that subject has done exhaustive extensive study of Sumerian writings and art and is one of very few people on this planet who can actually read ancient Sumerian texts., Zachariah Sitchin:
http://www.sitchin.com/

There's just too much of this stuff everywhere in history and now for it all to be "implausible." I chose to question everything we are told to believe, most of it is garbage, meant to control people....

[Possum]

.....

As far as WHY the government has gone to ridiculous extremes to conceal whats going on, there are good reasons why. There have been reports going back to the 50's that there has been contact, mainly with US military types and some not so "good guy" civilizations, in exchange for our getting some of their technology. Where does this information come from? Any time you try to keep a secret there are always leaks. Their solution to that problem was and is to dilute any REAL information coming out with similar stories loaded with ridiculous add ons, and ridicule, so that one can't tell fact from fiction. They have done that job really well as evidenced the material the HIstory Channel dug up. These tactics are in use now.

The other reason is the Brookings Institute, if I got the name right, did a study back then on what would happen if it was announced we are being visited by alien off-planet beings? Their report wasn't pretty, pretty much said religions would implode, people would panic and civilization could fall apart. There is a precedent for this in history on advanced cultures and primitive cultures meeting up and usually the primitive culture is the one that falls apart.

Probably no one here knows about this but several months ago there was a lady in England who was channeling some supposed ET's claiming to represent some kind of Federation who were telling her that it was time that Earth found out they are for real. They said they were going to hover some gigantic mother ship over some place in Africa I think it was, and it would be so huge that no one could deny it or explain it away. They warned people to stock up on food and water because they said it would disrupt every country to the extent that power plants and pretty much everything would shut down in a general panic that would last for at least a month. They said they were here to usher in a new age in Earth history and they were tired of our governments denying their existence to the world. So, OK, I have heard this one before several times in the past. The thing is that she convinced thousands of people all over the world via YouTube that this was for real. This has never happened before. Well, maybe War of The Worlds broadcast back in the 40's/Orson Welles. They announced the date they would show up. I started seeing all kinds of YouTube videos of people who have long waited for this event to happen, sane level headed people who know there really are others in the universe besides the primitive tribal warfaring monkeys who live on this planet :-) Then.....a really disturbing thing happened. I started seeing religious goofballs on YouTube telling the world that these were demons and "Satan" coming to "get" us. Going around in trucks with bull horns spewing out this garbage, on video. Then I also started seeing guys saying anything that lands on this planet they are going to be waiting with their shotguns and camouflage Budweiser Tshirts on. My attitude was wait and see, but I started to really hope it WASN'T going to happen because all the religious fanatics and these gun crazy maniacs would be out there in FORCE, and the whole place would go to shit really fast.

They didn't show up, and I"m glad. Later she posted their answer why they didn't and basically they said they saw what effect their announced date had on people and they said "you ain't ready for us." No shit, Sherlock :-) People couldn't handle it, and if you have ever been in a run on the supermarket during a panic you'd know that nice people turn real nasty when their survival is at stake. That Roswell guy said his grandfather said 2025 was when full disclosure is supposed to come, I don't think we'll be ready even then, unless they filter out REAL information little by little which some think they are now doing.

The other sticky part is, here we are in an energy crisis that is tearing the world apart and these "black world" types have supposedly back engineered devices that virtually supply free energy. Do they go to jail for crimes against humanity because they are sitting on answers and have for a long time or what? I think alot of people would really be pissed if what I've been hearing for years is true. Why should some small band of military types keep this information for military uses only and let the rest of the planet go to hell? Questions, questions.....

[Joe Gwinn]

Well, I don't think we will convince one another. Neither can prove or disprove either position, so I'll simply summarize my considered opinion:

1. It's almost certain that alien civilizations exist and in fact are common, based on the number of suitable planets. Basically every star in the sky will have planets of some kind; while only a tiny fraction of those planets will prove suitable, the total number of such planets will nonetheless be immense.

2. The average distance between civilizations will be very large, hundreds of lightyears, based on probabilities and the immense size of the universe. (One can get a whole range of values, depending on the fraction of planets that are suitable.)

3. Given the technology and science of 21st century Earth, interstellar travel while possible is basically impractical to do more than a few times, to the nearest stars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars

4. Current 21st century Earth Science in fact absolutely forbids doing better than implied in point 3, that is to travel faster than light, and it will take a least one scientific revolution on the scale of the transition from Newtonian Mechanics to Quantum Mechanics and Relativity to show the path to faster-than-light travel.

5. One may posit that some of those alien civilizations must have made sufficient scientific leaps that they are able to build practical starships.

6. Given that one of these civilizations has starships, why would they bother to visit Earth? Planets are not rare. There is nothing on Earth that isn't available on closer planets, uninhabited planets at that, so there is nobody to complain about mining operations in their back yard.

7. Explorers would visit once or twice, write an entry in their logbook, and then continue on their journey. We might have a legend or two, if anyone even noticed.

8. The only reason I can see for multiple visits would be anthropology. But again, why would Earth be so interesting? We could have been lucky. Anyway, anthropologists would probably want to observe but not affect the primitives being studied.

9. The same technology that allows the building of starships would also be used to conceal their existence. I have a lot of trouble believing that their camouflage would fail nearly as often as needed to explain all the claimed sightings. Nor would it make sense to feed new technologies to the primitives. Just watch, in silence.

[salvarsan]

Any chance this thread could die quietly?

<mode: "net_nanny">
After two subject hijacks, this thread is unrelated to pickups.
</mode>

I'm with Joe on this.
Viewed dispassionately, the idea that Earth is interesting
to the rest of the galaxy is a narcissistic fantasy.


An interstellar-traveling civilization might pause to look at us briefly, say
"what curious hairless monkeys. They fouled their habitat and
engage in global tribal warfare", then continue on their way.

-drh

[David Schwab]

2. The average distance between civilizations will be very large, hundreds of lightyears, based on probabilities and the immense size of the universe. (One can get a whole range of values, depending on the fraction of planets that are suitable.)

When I was younger I thought UFO's were spacecraft from another star somewhere, and they traveled here, etc. I got older and realized that even if they had the technology to do so, it would still require vast amounts of resources, no matter how advanced their civilization is, you have to have the resources to support that many travelers at the very least, and that's assuming they use some kind of power systems that don't burn fuel.

So then if it's not that, what are they?

3. Given the technology and science of 21st century Earth, interstellar travel while possible is basically impractical to do more than a few times, to the nearest stars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars

Right, so I agree they probably aren't getting here in a linear fashion. It takes too long to be practical. So then that doesn't disallow their existence, it only points out that they are NOT getting here by traveling from point A to B.

So it's something else we don't quite understand, yet.

6. Given that one of these civilizations has starships, why would they bother to visit Earth? Planets are not rare. There is nothing on Earth that isn't available on closer planets, uninhabited planets at that, so there is nobody to complain about mining operations in their back yard.

That's where it gets interesting. If you read the vast catalog of abduction reports, you start to see patterns emerging. One is that certain entities (and there are more than one "race" visiting us) is fascinated by our emotions, as they lost theirs. This was also reported by patients undergoing scientifically induced DMT "trips" in experiments by Dr. Rick Strassman in the 1990's. Many patients had the exact experience that alien abductees have, including the grays and the same messages told over and over to the humans.

Harvard psychiatrist John Mack, who had no interest in UFO's, came to the conclusion after studying hundreds of people who had the experience said:

"Face value I wouldn't say. I take them seriously. I don't have a way to account for them."

"I would never say, yes, there are aliens taking people. [But] I would say there is a compelling powerful phenomenon here that I can't account for in any other way, that's mysterious. Yet I can't know what it is but it seems to me that it invites a deeper, further inquiry."

So evidence would suggest many people are having the same experience, with the same minute details. Why? That can't be answered, except for information told to abductees, and some of that doesn't make much sense. But then to a different civilization we might indeed be different enough to warrant continued contact, without altering our own culture.

What makes no sense to us might make sense to an alien way of thinking.

7. Explorers would visit once or twice, write an entry in their logbook, and then continue on their journey. We might have a legend or two, if anyone even noticed.

We have plenty of those legends that we attribute to some sort of mythology. But perhaps they were far more literal then we take them to be. People have considered certain stories important enough to pass down over the millennia. But now we think of them as quaint fairy tales (while equally fantastic stories are held in faith by millions as a factual religion).

8. The only reason I can see for multiple visits would be anthropology. But again, why would Earth be so interesting? We could have been lucky. Anyway, anthropologists would probably want to observe but not affect the primitives being studied.

Some of the same handed down stories and legends say we were genetically manipulated and then used as slave labor by the "gods". There certainly seems to have been contact with these gods, since they are in every culture, and around these times humans built things we can't build today, and sometimes for mysterious reasons, i.e., the Great Pyramid was never used as a tomb, but we keep teaching that myth in school. So how did they make it, and what was it for? You can't cut granite with copper tools, and if you look at the work they did, surfaces are optically flat, and perfectly round holes have been drilled into thick stones. There are lots of ideas on how it was done (you mentioned some earlier) but no one ever gets these methods to work. Like the time they tried to build a small pyramid to show how it was done for TV, and they couldn't build it without a crane!

9. The same technology that allows the building of starships would also be used to conceal their existence. I have a lot of trouble believing that their camouflage would fail nearly as often as needed to explain all the claimed sightings. Nor would it make sense to feed new technologies to the primitives. Just watch, in silence.

Well they do conceal their existence. When we see them, we were meant to see them. Their idea is that they can contact one person at a time more safely than trying to show themselves to everyone at once. We are violent and dangerous beings after all.

So I think, yes, we are coexisting with non human entities and have been for millions of years. They are inter-dimensional. We've just started to think of the concept of places we would never be able to have contact with or even observe. We still travel using controlled explosions! At some point we will come up with something totally opposite. So maybe they aren't from "out there" more than right here, but not exactly here.

Why are they here? Why are we here? Why is any of this? We have to answer those questions first. Maybe that's just the way it is. We live here with millions of different spices totally alien to us. What's a few more?

Lets go back to the DMT trips. DMT is a natural substance in many living things on Earth, and present in out brains. It's highest when we are born and when we die. Given enough of it and you will "see" things that you normally would not. Of course a powerful psychedelic drug like that will make you see things. But people keep seeing the same things. And why do we make it in our brains? What purpose does it have?

So it could be as simple as there are other existences right here that we don't experience. It's not important to our existence, so our brains are not wired to deal with it. We don't see most of the electromagnetic spectrum for instance. And even if our eyes can pick out certain frequencies, we don't process any of that, so we don't see UV for instance. So maybe chemicals like DMT unlock that part of the brain. Now we can interact with things that weren't here before. But the things are real.

Could be as simple as that.

[David Schwab]

I'm with Joe on this.
Viewed dispassionately, the idea that Earth is interesting
to the rest of the galaxy is a narcissistic fantasy.

To us. But then we spend years sitting with Gorillas. So how they feel about it? They must be special, right?

Just because we can't come up with a reason for it doesn't mean that the things people experience aren't real. You only have to see one once to realize you can't explain it. And all of the intelligent things that you can think it would be, just don't fit. There is a level of "high strangeness" because you are looking at something that doesn't fit our perceived existence.

We don't know everything, and we only understand a small part of what we can see.

We can't even see more than a fraction of the universe!

[Possum]

..

Revisiting the pyramid thing, I have been totally fascinated by the Great Pyramid since I was in my early 20's and have read everything I could get my hands on. Egyptians never built that one, all the others were attempts to copy it. It predates all the others. There is NO egyptian writing or inscriptions on or in it anywhere. Once exception is a 3 symbol inscription above some doorway not accessible to most tourists and it is in an unknown language; actually these days you can't even go inside anymore. There is some graffitti in one of the highest interior access points but its mostly accepted that some researcher in the 1800's probably made it himself and "Khufu" is mispelled. He was trying to rig it to prove his own flimsy theories. Ancient Arabic stories about the Great Pyramid state that it WAS opened a long time ago, bodies were found with long robes and turbans, not Egyptian clothing. Originally the pyramid was covered in stone and inscriptions but most of it fell of in big earthquakes and used as building material in Cairo. It is generally thought that it dates to about 10-12,000 years ago. The Sphinx is also not Egyptian and there's enough evidence that the face was recarved during Egyptian times. Khufu likely dug both out of the sand and had nothing to do with building it. Water deposits around the Sphinx date back to around 10,000 years ago. And, I'm sorry but no one has demonstrated they can duplicate that thing. The last attempt I saw was about five years ago, some theorists and the Discovery Channel went out there, working on something like 1/6th scale did demonstrate that possibly earthen ramps were used and there is archaeological existing evidence of ramps still around. But were they used to BUILD it or, or were they left from digging it out of the sands of time? So these guys managed to get a couple stones pile on top of eachother etc. but in the end when asked could they build a real full sized Cheops in the same time it was supposedly built? The answer was a definite NO. All these attempts to duplicate theories have never been done with full size full scale stone, now thats just cheating, it doesn't work. If Cheops was built in 20 years I think its rumored to be, that means they had to cut, dress, move and place a stone something like every ten minutes? I may have that figure wrong, but still we just cannot do it. I've also never encountered anything about jewel edged copper cutting tools, even they did exist you surely couldn't build a thing like that in 20 years. Look at the interior of it, perfectly straight air shafts, the Grand Gallery is a marvel of stone cutting and fitting, its not a simple pile of stones, they discount that everytime they try to figure it out. Not to mention the missing cap stone, supposedly composed of some kind of metal, that thing must have huge, heavy, a marvel in itself.

ET contactees from my readings of many of their stories are told that Earth IS a highly unique place, because of its incredible diversity of human cultures, and species, a veritable zoo for study. They are also told that we are genetically related to many star cultures who have had enfluence in our genetic make up. We are their ancestors and they are ours. There is also evidence that some like Joe said, just visit once, send down probes or inhabited vehicles and leave. We are told that we are hard to communicate with because we are divided conscioussnesses. Our minds are always jabbering away about endless nothings, but our subconscious mind is doing something else. Which part do they communicate with? They also say because of this we are hard for them to be around because we are so "noisy" to their minds it is very irritating to be near us. If you are a student of conscioussness you know this is true, all the great masters of enlightenment talk about becoming "no mind" and "no time" beings as the way out of ego centered living which has produced what the world is now....a huge fucking mess basically. There is a growing movement afoot, a hopeful evolutionary change happening, books like Echhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" have become huge best sellers, humanity is starting to see that conscioussness needs to change or we will destroy ourselves and the planet. Some abductees are told this is happening and that one reason for visitation is to observe this "event" and maybe even to help push it along.

The abductee thing is a huge problem. Debunkers try to turn it into "sleep paralysis" and other claims of it just being a mental phenomenom. Some of their explanations are more ridiculous than what abductees report :-) Mental phenomenom don't leave circular burn marks in the grass, bright lights flying over houses, or visual sightings of unusual noiseless vehicles etc. etc. I think some of these ardent debunkers get their paychecks from DOD, they do their best the muddy the waters and aren't really very scientific with their hysterical far fetched attempts to explain away these things. This stuff should be objectively studied not ridiculed or explained away with really dumb theories; those who HAVE studied always become converted into knowing it is real. But you know, from I'm hearing these days, abudctions aren't being done anymore. There is a theory too that they were gathering as much DNA and species samples as they can because of an upcoming event that pretty much wipes out most living things on the planet, an event that is cyclical and happens regularly and has happened regularly in Earth's history. One famous close encounter years ago a ship landed at an African school yard and children heard in their minds that they were invited to go with the ship because something was going to happen and the only way to survive it would be to get on board. We are about to go into a solar maximum stage in 2012 that even scientists are freaked out about, hmmmmmmmm

[Possum]

...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGAFHJJL91.DTL