Amazing eBay Find!

[Joe Gwinn]

Ancient Egyptian Stoneworking Technology

Those oldtimers knew a thing or two.. Many of these methods are still used today.

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden...bing_saws.html

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden...ng_drills.html

http://www.theglobaleducationproject...les/petrie.php

http://www.touregypt.net/petrie/c19.html

[Possum]

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thanks I'll check the links out later tonite. I was at the bookstore tonite and bought Christopher Dunn's "Giza Powerplant" book. I'd only glanced over it before but took a closer look and looks like a fascinating read. He is an engineer and did alot of precise measuring in Cheops and the surrounding area and has some fascinating theories and discoveries. I think he says there he found evidence of ultrasonic drilling, I'll find out when I read it.

There is a VERY disturbing thing that happened in the late 90's. Members of an expeditionary group doing research on finding underground cavities around the great pyramid ran across evidence that inside the pyramid someone was digging a new tunnel, into the space behind where that little video cam robot went and found a tiny door, that was broadcast on national TV back then. They found power cables going up into that area and bags of debris being removed. They documented this:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/pyramid.html
and reported it to authorities, and of course nothing was done or reported. Zawi Hawass, director of Antiquities over there is a freaking Egyptian nationalist nut case that archaeologists hate. He refuses to even consider that any other civilzation had anything to do with building the Great Pyramid and if he thinks your expedition might find or is looking for any such evidence you are booted out of Egypt post haste. What is most disturbing is that one of these guys told on the radio program that he saw a large object being removed from the pyramid on a pallet and covered in material used to blocking energy emissions. This object was put on a US military cargo plane and took off. He sent a chip from the new excavation to the radio host, who one night saw it glowing in the dark! Limetone?

There is speculation that some kind of energy device was found, and of course Zawi would never admit that anything non-Egyptian had been found, which probably is what WAS found. Since then nothing has been heard or explained, the Egyptians authorities did nothing, no investigation and the world will never know what was in the hidden chamber. The whole of human civilization has been deprived of truths about one of the most amazing technological feats in human history because of one little man's national pride and giant ego, such a shame...

[Bruce Johnson]

I, too, have to side with Joe. I personally used to have above Top Secret level security clearances, and worked in some of the "black" project locations while I was at Lockheed. I hate to break it to you, but there aren't any alien spaceships there being examined for technology. It's just guys like us inventing and building cool things. And yes, we're smart enough to think them up by ourselves.

You can stop blaming the CIA, too. The "Hollywood" image of the CIA is ridiculous; that's not what they do. There are and have been lies and disinformation passed around, but it's been done by the security departments of various black programs. They do it because it's their job to protect their secrets. I'm not judging whether that's morally right or wrong, but that's why they do it. And it is very, very hard to keep anything secret, especially if it involves more than a handful of people. Giant, decades-long conspiracies are fiction.

But I agree that we might as well drop the subject.....and I have to go cash my check from the CIA for writing this

[David Schwab]

I, too, have to side with Joe. I personally used to have above Top Secret level security clearances, and worked in some of the "black" project locations while I was at Lockheed. I hate to break it to you, but there aren't any alien spaceships there being examined for technology. It's just guys like us inventing and building cool things. And yes, we're smart enough to think them up by ourselves.

I had a top secret clearance as well. That also had nothing to do with alien technology, just defense communications. But the lack of alien technology at these places doesn't prove there is no alien technology.

There are some interesting stories that JFK had taken people, including Marilyn Monroe, to see the "crashed saucers" and another person who spoke of this at the time of his death was Jackie Gleason. According to Gleason's second wife, Beverly McKittrick, he told her that U.S. President Richard Nixon took him on a secret visit to Homestead Air Force Base. There, Gleason allegedly saw an alien spaceship and dead extraterrestrials.

There are too many people seeing these things, including commercial pilots and military personnel, to discredit it based on lack of physical evidence, even though there is enough anecdotal evidence of people who have seen the remains of crashed disks.

So as far as sooner or later this information leaks out, well it has been leaking for years.

You can stop blaming the CIA, too. The "Hollywood" image of the CIA is ridiculous; that's not what they do. There are and have been lies and disinformation passed around, but it's been done by the security departments of various black programs. They do it because it's their job to protect their secrets. I'm not judging whether that's morally right or wrong, but that's why they do it. And it is very, very hard to keep anything secret, especially if it involves more than a handful of people. Giant, decades-long conspiracies are fiction.

But I agree that we might as well drop the subject.....and I have to go cash my check from the CIA for writing this

The CIA now is a joke...

But do you know there was a connection between the CIA and the National Enquirer tabloid paper? And at one time the National Enquirer carried more actual UFO reports than any other paper. The paper was founded by Gene Pope, who worked for the CIA as an intelligence officer in 1951, and described his work as being connected to "psychological warfare", a unit that deals with propaganda and brainwashing.

In 1952, Pope purchased the New York Enquirer. He allegedly received financing for this from mobster Frank Costello, who was well connected within the intelligence community, having worked for the Office of Strategic Services and the Office of Naval Intelligence during World War II.

Pope was also supported by powerful sources within the US government. When the Winn-Dixie grocery chain refused to carry the National Enquirer, chain executives were entertained by Defense Secretary Melvin Laird and treated to a half-hour meeting with President Richard Nixon, both meetings arranged by Pope. The chain has carried the Enquirer ever since. When Gene Pope died in 1988, Melvin Laird delivered the eulogy at his funeral.

The intimate connection between Pope, the Enquirer and the government extended to the paper's coverage of UFO stories. Contrary to popular opinion, UFO headlines actually damaged Enquirer newsstand sales. "Issues of the Enquirer that had a UFO story as the lead headline on page one never sold well," according to Hansen's interview with Bob Pratt, who provided the paper's UFO reporting in the seventies.

Nevertheless, UFO coverage continued to be lavish in the Enquirer, and was (and is) a major reason that the mainstream of scientific and intellectual culture in the United States avoids the topic.

In October 1988 Gene Pope Jr. died of a heart attack. By order of his will, the tabloid is put up for auction. It fetches $412 million. Today the Enquirer belongs to American Media Inc.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/mindframe/opinion/?id=22

Newspapers like this have been used by other governments as well to sway public opinion about such subjects.

[DrStrangelove]

Off topic

Before it is summarily truncated and locked, this thread might relocate and
live happily over in the soapbox section at
http://music-electronics-forum.com/f...splay.php?f=44

apologies for the off-topic comment
-the Immoderator

[Possum]

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OK, Dr. Strange :-) As regarding the "CIA" post, putting a microscope to an elephant's foot doesn't mean you know the whole elephant. The CIA DID plant those fake looney guys in UFO organizations, if they are still involved who knows?

Joe, the Pyramid book is by one of your fellow engineers, who was educated using primitive machining methods as an apprentice in England, later recruited by high tech aerospace companies in the US, and has used every manufacturing technique in modern times including lasers etc. etc. His book is down to earth, no aliens or Atlantis, just proof based on a technologist's examination of actual existing ancient "egyptian" technology. Fascinating book. They HAD machines, they had lathes, there is an existing example from the pyramid itself of cast iron. His website has an awful lot of the material that is in his book, fascinating materials :
http://www.gizapower.com/
I haven't gotten to the meat yet, but the book is about his theory that the pyramid was a MACHINE in itself based on his professional experience. If you are interested in this stuff this is the book for YOU (and me too!) Enjoy

[Joe Gwinn]

I looked over the gizapower website, and he seems very much impressed with the ability of the Egyptians to generate flat surfaces, and assumes that this proves that they had access to machine tools. But this begs the question. Or leads to a chicken-or-egg question.

How does one make the first machine tool? Most machine tools make things less accurate than themselves, and yet there had to be a way to make very accurate things starting with very crude tools. Again, we do know how this was done, and there is no reason that the ancients could not do the same.

How does one make something truly flat, starting from scratch? One takes at least three slabs, and grinds them against one another in a random pattern. The only mathematical surface that allows all three surfaces to conform to one another (to fit perfectly) is the plane. If one keeps this up while graduating to finer and finer grits, one will end up with three optical flats.

http://home.comcast.net/~jaswensen/m...ight_edge.html

If one uses only two slabs, what will result is a sphere. This is how lenses and telescope mirrors are made.

The common variation of this in machining is to use prussian blue dye in thin grease and a steel scraper. One has three cast iron plates. One plate is smeared very thinly with the blue grease and set face down on the other plate, which is face up. Remove upper plate, and scrape the metal of the bottom plate away wherever the blue grease transferred. Keep doing this, while randomly changing which two plates are being worked, and which plate is on top. After a great deal of work, the surfaces will all become perfectly flat.

Once one has made at least one flat, one makes squares by a similar process, as perpendicular is the only angle that satisfies 3-way mating.

And so on. This is how the basic machine tools were first made, and these methods are used to this day to make the machine tools that make other machine tools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_scraper

[Possum]

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Joe before you comment on someone's life work I would suggest you read the book, you are jumping way too fast on incomplete information. I am only maybe a third of the way into the book and not even into the core of his theory. He did mention there is near the pyramid complex a leveled building site, it was leveled by an 18 inch circular cutter like an end mill would cut in overlapping cuts. He also mentions that no one has found the real method used to level the pyramid (Cheops). Just theories with no actual evidence.

I looked at pictures on his website, they had circular saws, straight saws, core drills of high tech design, this is as far as I've gotten into. the pyramid is built to OPTICAL tolerances. It is still the largest most accurately built building on the earth. We can't duplicate it, particularly in the guessed 20 year time period. He went to quarries and talked to stone cutters, they don't deal in such tight tolerances even now and are astounded at whats found in the Cheops construction. they told him it would take modern quarries 27 years just to CUT the stone, not move it, not deliver it, not put it in place. And that doesn't include accidents and delays.

You say we "know what tools they used." Wrong. We know what tools have been FOUND, which is actually precious little few that have been recovered. I'm sorry but you can't cut that Aswan red granite with copper tools, not hardened, not abrasive slurry, etc. I looked at those pictures and they look exactly like modern lapidary cuts. I recognize those cuts and they were done by machine. I have cut every kind of stone except diamonds for 7 years as a lapidary artist, was even featured in Lapidary Journal one year, I know what machine cuts look like. He points out that Egyptologists are not technologists or craftsmen and are prone to huge errors because they have no experience in actually making anything.

The tools that were used to cut the stones IN THAT ONE PYRAMID ONLY, (this is a very important fact because the other pyramids are really bad imitations...) have never been found. You are making the same mistake Egyptiologists make in judging a building that has never been accurately dated by primitive tools from LATER periods. If we manage to destroy ourselves in this time period, then say the Hoover Dam remains for a couple thousand years, and most of our technology turns to rust and dust, yet a later group begins to build in stone and cement but leave copper tools laying around, future archaeologist may make the same mistake, the Hoover Dam was built with copper chisels and stone hammers :-) You won't get anywhere trying to cut that stuff with copper tools, sure maybe you could rig up a slurry cutter and maybe get it to start cutting, but you're not going to be able to cut stone at the rapid rate required to build a thing like that. And where is the evidence? They have never found circular stone cutting saws, core drills, or lathes. Probably because that building was made many thosuands of years earlier, those tools are long gone, do they still exist, if so, where?

I am really not going to defend this man's work line by line, so if you want to stick to official thoeries that have long since been proven wrong, fine, but if you want someone from your profession who has worked in the highest levels of technology to explain what he found that is based on hard evidence, READ HIS BOOK. Otherwise you are just commenting on my poor ability to explain what I've read and myself not having finished the book. Egyptologist's theories have long been full of big holes, and he pretty accurately points them out in detail and references other's work in the field. Read the book, then make your comments. BTW, the NOVA series "This Old Pyramid" he points out that they edited out the part where they used front loaders and heavy lifting cranes because their methods didn't work, cute. He also points out the huge fallacy of building on a diminished scale isn't anything like building on the scale of Cheops. Read the book please, as an engineer you will find it enjoyable, it is not a hysterical work about aliens or Atlantis, or dynasties or history, it is strictly about the engineering that was used to build that one building. Read his credentials, he knows what he is talking about...

[DrStrangelove]

OK, Dr. Strange :-) As regarding the "CIA" post, putting a microscope to an elephant's foot doesn't mean you know the whole elephant. The CIA DID plant those fake looney guys in UFO organizations, if they are still involved who knows?

Don't care.

This thread is so far off-topic, it's not even wrong.

It is, however, a dead thread.

Intemperately,
-The Immoderator.

[DrStrangelove]

Little Green Men are all right by me

The stunning realization that things could be much worse
than to discuss the possibility of extraterrestrial visitations
and other Fortean phenomena on a pickup makers forum
compels me to re-open this thread.

Sorry about that, guys.

Sincere apologies,
-your contrite Immoderator

[LtKojak]

The stunning realization that things could be much worse than to discuss the possibility of extraterrestrial visitations and other Fortean phenomena on a pickup makers forum compels me to re-open this thread.

LOL!

So true!

[David Schwab]

The stunning realization that things could be much worse
than to discuss the possibility of extraterrestrial visitations
and other Fortean phenomena on a pickup makers forum
compels me to re-open this thread.

Sorry about that, guys.

Sincere apologies,
-your contrite Immoderator

+1 to the Charles Fort reference!

Here's an interesting website:

http://mexicosroswell.com/default.aspx

On a clear spring day in 1955, Air Force reservist Robert Willingham was piloting an F-86 fighter jet across West Texas when he saw an intensely bright UFO streak past his aircraft at over 2,000 miles per hour and then crash-land along the banks of the Rio Grande River, where he later found smoldering, twisted wreckage that convinced him the object was not of the Earth.

The Other Roswell: UFO Crash on the Texas-Mexico Border discloses for the first time ever, the eyewitness testimony of Colonel Willingham, who says that he chased a UFO across Texas, saw it crash to the earth near Del Rio, Texas, and later visited the crash site.

I listened to a Pod Cast with the authors today. Sounds like an interesting book.

[DrStrangelove]

+1 to the Charles Fort reference!

Seriously, the idea that boutique pickup makers should hand over
their pride of craftsmanship to a bunch of masturbating monkeys with Les Pauls
for use as targets in a shit-slinging contest whose winner is decided
beforehand is outright offensive.

ET and Roswell rock.

-The Immoderator

[Possum]

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This thread isn't really totally unrelated to pickup making, especially in my area of interest, back-engineering PAF pickups. This is one reason I find the Giza pyramids so fascinating. I am deeper into the book now. The study of what tools and how these stones were cut is directly related to how can we duplicate those feats in modern times, in short, can we learn to improve our existing machine tools by studying the past? Back-engineering old technology is fascinating to me, having done alot of it with the PAF puzzle.

An example I was about to post before I was given the boot :-) and for the benefit of Joe who thinks we can build an exact replica, no problemo......is the stone boxes like the sarcophagus in the great pyramid and 20 much larger granite boxes in a tunnel where they were being built. All these boxes have completely DEAD FLAT surfaces inside and out. The problem is that no stone cutter, mason, or quarry guy can duplicate those things and the author contacted all those types of businesses to ask if they could do it. The flatness is even all over every surface and is optically flat within .00002" (going by memory here). We can do this on the outside of giant granite boxes with some difficulty but we can't do it on a single block of stone hollowed out with incredible machine accuracy, that he proved were done with HIGH SPEED tools, not primitive guys in sandals spinning little pieces of wood and string and humming slave tunes to a blues shuffle :-) The stone mason who was involved in the NOVA series "This Old Pyramid" said we can't do it, the quarry/stone mason guys said they could do it with great difficulty if they could do it as seperate slabs and bolt them together. So this brings up what was their power source for these machine tools?
He also found boring/corings done through granite at an astonishing rate of feed we can't even come close to. His theory is they had ultrasonic drilling which would duplicate every feature he found. The stonemason from the NOVA series wanted to collaborate with Dunn to try to duplicate that drilling technique because it would be of high value to his shop. They wanted to do a follow up to the NOVA show but it never happened, and NOVA has a history of being debunkers and not looking at theories, no matter how valid, that are out of their "scientific" comfort zone, so thats no surprise.

It is a human phenomonom that people will interpret puzzles through the technology of their own time. Egyptologists are so arrogant that they refuse to admit that there were techniques used that would be very difficult for us to do in our time and some that we are not capable of. The pyramids may predate Egyptian civilization by many thousands of years, they have never been scientifically dated. This would explain the lack of tools being found. The truth is that almost NO egyptian tools from any period have been found, very few and only primitive tools most likely from later periods.

So, obviously a civilization capable of high technology existed in the past equal or above our own, at least in technologies demonstrated in the great pyramid. Who were they? Cayce says they were built by Atlantaens who were way ahead of Egyptian civilization at the time. Why is it there are pyramids all over the earth, and megalithic structures we can't duplicate, stones we could barely even move if at all? If there was a high tech civilization then as ancient writings say there was, they had air transportation, their work would be everywhere, and it is. Was all this stuff built by other off-world civilizations, who are we to say they weren't? That would be pure arrogancy to say its not possible. Ancient literature is full of accounts of people from the stars interacting with humanity and building things and teaching humans the arts. Sumerian literature is filled with this kind of thing. Their culture seems to have appeared out of nowhere and excelled in all the sciences and arts with techniques we still use today. As a former jewelry artist who studied the history of that art form, Sumerians practically invented every known form of jewelry and lapidary art, in an incredibly short period of time. There exists a Sumerian clay tablet that shows a navigation route to the Sumerian part of Earth, flying in PAST THE MOON, there is a Sumerian statue that exists of a woman with a space helmet on with a tube going down her back to a box mounted there. This stuff is real.

If our civilizations vanishes and 10,000 years from now what will remain of us? Very little probably, will future archaeologists find the remains of ipods and HD tv screens? Probably not. Yet things like Hoover dam may still exist then. Will they say it was a burial tomb, a religious artefact? Why are there big rotting piles of oxidized iron and copper inside it, was it a metals processing place. If the future civilization living near there is only tribal living in mud huts, Hoover dam would have been built by gods in their eyes. If they were a little more advanced and found some old Indian arrow heads laying around would they say it was built with flint rock tools?

It is really sad that people are threatened by the truth, they will try to come up with any explanation but the one that is staring them in the face. Egyptologists still claim those giant granite stones were cut with copper chisels, well why are there high speed circular saw marks there then? Why does western society ridicule the idea of ancient extraterrestrial contact and colonization of Earth? What is funny about that? What is impossible about that? We are at a level of technology where we can't fly to any planet even in our own solar system and we insist that no other beings in the infinite universe would have capabilities beyond our own? Are we that f*cking stupid? I guess we are, personally I don't subscribe conformist theories of people who insist on being stupid :-) If Dunn's theories are correct, there is a vast untapped energy technology that was used that we sorely could use right now, the people who built that thing built a free energy machine that tapped the natural energies of the Earth itself, it would put alot of industries out of business, thats for damn sure.....

[Possum]

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Forgot to say thankyou to the moderator, my little grey friends say you are a cool MF'er.....