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**Matt T.** · 12-08-2006, 01:20 PM

Regarding the threads (the only thing in your post I know anything about lol); are they the right pitch and just not cut deep enough or is it a matter of coarse vs. fine thread? Have you measured the thread on the Gibson/Duncan screws (thread gages are cheap) and specified that thread? Here's a link to some thread specs if needed. Is it just a case of you wanting UNC threads but you're getting UNF?

That's too bad about the suppliers...must be extremely frustrating.

**Joe Gwinn** · 12-08-2006, 04:26 PM

Control Drawings

Originally posted by WolfeMacleod View Post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say, this week so far has been the week of Murphy's Laws.
I think it started last week, actually...but I'm not sure.

It all started with some screw samples I received from a prospective screw supplier. We've been working on this for awhile now to get the right screws..
They send polepiece screw samples. They're all wrong. One had a very nice head top, but the diameter was very small. One had a nice diameter, but the head was very thin top to bottom. Mind you - I sent examples of exactly what I want... <snip> F...

I suspect that real control drawings are in order here. It's a matter of communications. Sample screws are nice, but clearly someone was confused between which was the good example and which was the don't-do-that sample. Unless the screws were somehow marked clearly (to a screw supplier), a mixup is inevitable.

The root problem is that industrial suppliers such as screw makers know nothing of pickups, and will never learn - their specialty is screws or whatever, not guitars. This will never change, as the guitar world is too tiny to force the industrial folk to learn. So, we need to learn how to communicate with the industrial suppliers upon which we are forced to depend. The standard industrial solution to this problem is the control drawing.

What is a control drawing? It's an engineering drawing, showing front, top, and side views of the desired screw (or whatever), annotated with toleranced dimensions, screw thread type and tolerance class, material (alloy number), and finish (such as "bright nickel plated"). In short, everything the suppiler needs to define (and price) the desired screw.

The drawing should belong to the buyer, so it can be sent to multiple suppliers for quotes, and so the screws provided by the various suppliers are interchangeable, and will remain so over the years.

Given that the pickup making market is tiny by industrial standards, it would be a very good idea if pickup makers settled on a common set of control drawings for most things, with an agreed set of names for these designs, to ensure reliable supply and avoid fragmentation.

**mick** · 12-08-2006, 08:08 PM

It's comforting to see that it's not just the little guy who gets fucked about !!!

Mick

**Steve Conner** · 12-08-2006, 09:03 PM

I work for a small electronics company that supplies "Gizmos" to the telecoms industry, and we get a lot of the same problems. In fact I think I remember a few similar mix-ups with screws.

Control drawings are all very well, but sometimes you don't even realise what feature of the part you're buying needs to be controlled until the day that your supplier suddenly discontinues the part and replaces it with one that's identical apart from that feature, and your product suddenly stops working. We have a guy whose whole job is pretty much to browse through parts catalogs and websites, and hassle suppliers on the phone, to try and get us the stuff we need on time and at reasonable prices.

I guess in the case of pickup pole piece screws, the way they look is important, and the screw industry isn't really as good at specifying that, compared to the other things that matter more when it comes to holding pieces of metal together. I know if I walked into my local hardware store and asked for "A pound of those big mean looking black allen bolts they use on the Duncan Invader" I wouldn't get far

**David Schwab** · 12-08-2006, 09:23 PM

Aren't the screw poles on a humbucker just fillister head screws? I remember learning all the screw head types back when I worked at ITT, and realizing that was the same screw type on pickups.

I really doubt pickup makers have screws made for them... it's just a matter of finding the right kind.

Has anyone tried looking at something like McMaster-Carr's catalog? They seem to have just about everything imaginable... including metal and plastic sheet, etc. Does anyone know the thread gauge and length off hand? They have them in steel, which is what we would want.

Do a search for "fillister head" and you will find these:

Attached Files

**Spence** · 12-08-2006, 11:11 PM

I've had screws made. Screw manufacturers should know exactly how to recreate what you're looking for.
One of the obscure screws types I've had made were for Supro Lap Steels.
Jason Lollar told me that he cuts his own from a bar of all-thread. I was lucky and got them made by a firm that makes screws for Tractors. They were able to do a small batch too as I didn't really want to be swimming in the damned things.

**David Schwab** · 12-09-2006, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Spence View Post

I've had screws made. Screw manufacturers should know exactly how to recreate what you're looking for.
One of the obscure screws types I've had made were for Supro Lap Steels.
Jason Lollar told me that he cuts his own from a bar of all-thread. I was lucky and got them made by a firm that makes screws for Tractors. They were able to do a small batch too as I didn't really want to be swimming in the damned things.

Good info!

**WolfeMacleod** · 12-09-2006, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by David Schwab View Post

Aren't the screw poles on a humbucker just fillister head screws? ....Do a search for "fillister head" and you will find these:

Yes, they're just Fillister head screws, in a 5-40 thread.
Problem is, each screw from each different manufacturer is different. Gibson screws are different than Duncan screws. Gibson's modern screws have straighter sides, more like those in your picture....Duncan's Antiquity screrws are closer to the old PAF screws, with slighty rounded screws...in fact, they're the same exact screw I got last time, verified by the tool-marks on the head...a tiny, 1/2 crescent shaped ding that radiates from the slot...
Then you have Tom Holmes screws...freaking perfect, perfect heads, and a virtually flat top...not "vintage correct" but I really like it a lot.

Each manufacturer makes 'em slighty different.

**David Schwab** · 12-09-2006, 03:26 AM

See how much we learn here!

Seriously... interesting stuff. I just figured a screw is a screw.

**NightWinder** · 12-09-2006, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by WolfeMacleod View Post

Yes, they're just Fillister head screws, in a 5-40 thread.
Problem is, each screw from each different manufacturer is different. Gibson screws are different than Duncan screws. Gibson's modern screws have straighter sides, more like those in your picture....Duncan's Antiquity screrws are closer to the old PAF screws, with slighty rounded screws...in fact, they're the same exact screw I got last time, verified by the tool-marks on the head...a tiny, 1/2 crescent shaped ding that radiates from the slot...
Then you have Tom Holmes screws...freaking perfect, perfect heads, and a virtually flat top...not "vintage correct" but I really like it a lot.

Each manufacturer makes 'em slighty different.

Tom Holmes pickups are the best I have had the pleasure of playing, other than mine ofcoarse (self Bias, You understand). I've played some pickups from builders here as well,(will not name) and can honestly say there are some Really Good builders here too. Really Good.
For you all that dont build, this is where its at for Pickup Builders, PICK ONE!! You won't be disapointed!!

**Possum** · 12-09-2006, 08:31 AM

holding my breath.....

Well I'm turning blue waiting for 10,000 screws to show up here myself. I sent them vintage samples from 50s Gibson, 60s Gibson, and Tim Shaw era 80's Gibson. Asked them what alloy is this? What did they use in 1959? He faxed me a tech sheet from a screw making manual from about '61. The interesting thing about the manual is there is wide range of tolerances for one single screw, its kinda like magnet wire, you ask for 42 gauge and you don't get the same thing from each place, some lean, some fat, lately none dead in the middle anymore.

BTW someone told me Holmes has his own damn screw making machine because he couldn't get what he wanted from anyone. Thats kinda the bottom line really, ain't it?

Wolfe if you got stuck with a shit load of off parts sell them to the hobbyist guys, they don't care and the stuff will still make good pickups. If your magnets are falling through the flatwork maybe they would be good for 5mm magnet sets? I always thought AllParts strat flats were fucked up til I realized they were made for 5mm magnets, of course NO ONE at AllParts has a clue what they are selling so they didn't tell me why theirs don't work for 3/16" magnets, how stupid is that???? Figured it out eventually, duh. StewMac's are cheaper than AP's so I buy them.

Also BTW your screw supplier refused to look at my vintage screw samples to tell me what alloy they might think it is, they refused to do any other alloy than what they are using for your stuff, and they refused to bid on my 10,000 piece order, they didn't want to hurt their tiny brains by having to do any work for the order. Weird attitude for a business, screw 'em :-) I'll let you know how my order works out, the guys I used were friendly, knowledgeable, actually answer emails and did examine my vintage samples, so here's hoping....

**Joe Gwinn** · 12-09-2006, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by WolfeMacleod View Post

Yes, they're just Fillister head screws, in a 5-40 thread.
Problem is, each screw from each different manufacturer is different. Gibson screws are different than Duncan screws. Gibson's modern screws have straighter sides, more like those in your picture....Duncan's Antiquity screrws are closer to the old PAF screws, with slighty rounded screws...in fact, they're the same exact screw I got last time, verified by the tool-marks on the head...a tiny, 1/2 crescent shaped ding that radiates from the slot...
Then you have Tom Holmes screws...freaking perfect, perfect heads, and a virtually flat top...not "vintage correct" but I really like it a lot.

Each manufacturer makes 'em slighty different.

The difference is that some screws have cold-formed heads, while others are machined from bar stock on a screw machine (or a small late, for small quantities). The little ding in the heads is due to a flaw in the specific die used to cold-form the head. Eventually, the die will wear out and be replaced, and the precise shape of the head will change. But the ding will be gone.

The threads with the rounded (blunt) tops are rolled, not cut. This is generally considered a good thing in industry, as rolled threads are far stronger than cut threads, and cheaper to boot. But in pickups strength isn't the issue, and sharp threads hold better in plastic or forbon.

It sounds like Tom Holmes is having his screws cut from bar stock on a screw machine. In particular, heads with straight sides and flat tops are very hard to make by cold heading. Possum reinforced this conclusion - Holmes may own his own screw machine. This isn't impossible, as cam-controlled screw machines are now obsolete (replaced by CNC), and so are available used for reasonable money. But there needs to be a machinist available to set such a machine up.

A Control Drawing can specify that the parts will be made by machining from bar stock.

**mick** · 12-09-2006, 10:53 PM

Possum

Why should the hobbyists have sub parts ? Wolf should turn into someone like his supplier passing on crap parts to unsuspecting customers ? and so on etc ? lets face it if theres stuff out there that's not 100% then it's bad for everybody , you can imagine the comments now , fuck maaaan , if thats what the parts are like I'd hate to think what his pickups are like . maybe your screw supplier is waiting for someone to return some off parts Dave , just so they can offload them onto you ? HAHA

**Possum** · 12-10-2006, 10:03 AM

off parts.....

Well the point is that some guy making a couple humbuckers a year doesn't have nor need the high standards that Wolfe is trying to keep up. I mean most hobbyists don't even pay attention to such things, so if Wolfe got stuck with a train load of screws with slightly flat tops they're probably still better than what Stew Mac or GJ is selling. Shit, even dumb ass ME, didn't pay that much attention to pole screws until I read and reread that Seth Lover interview a couple times. It suddenly hit me that the alloy being used is critical to tone and this was easily proved by switching from Guitar Jones screws to StewMac screws, the difference in tone was remarkable. So in getting some vintage samples ready to send to this fastener maker I was looking at his tech sheet from 1961, looking at my screws and all of them and everything was different. So here I am having to tell this guy how I want my screws made and I'm overwhelmed by all this information and did the best I could come up with. But then now I am at his mercy and sending me what they are capable of making. You use what you can get, I don't like anybody's keeper bars that I can buy but I'm stuck with what I can get, so if Wolfe has some real good screws he doesn't want with something he didn't like about them that the regular hobbyists wouldn't care about or notice then they'd be lucky to get some halfway decent screws that are probably better than the metric crap thats out there. Make sense?

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