Dark Brown wire in a Gibson p'up...

[Mike Sulzer]

I think it is due to the dielectric differences in the insulation.

Then I think this implies that using wire with a different insulation dielectric changes the pickup capacitance. The relative effect of changes in pickup capacitance is reduced by the larger cable capacitance that appears in parallel. (The resonant frequency is 1/((2*pi)*sqrt(L*C)), where C is the parallel combination of the pickup and cable capacitance.) A humbucker might have 80 pf, while the cable might be 500 pf. But the effect must be there. On the other hand, if you wind the pickup with the wire that causes a larger C, you could use a cable with a somewhat lower C. Should do about the same thing, right?

[David Schwab]

So... is that dark brown wire found in those Gibson '57 Classic from 1995 probably Plain Enamel...? (never got answered)

I doubt it.

You can get wire with any color insulation you want.

[Possum]

....

Yeah cables have a big effect, yesterday my test guitar started sounding really freaking dark, it was the cable going bad. In vintage days guys like Hendrix who had guitars with really bright pickups had the old coily cords to tame the treble down, Stevie Ray once tried a real efficient cable and hated it because it made his guitar too shrill.

I think you could tell what Gibson is using if you put it side by side with regular PE. I have some black formvar and you can tell its not PE if you put it next to real black PE. PE feels different when you strip it too, it feels drier to me and it digs a path in felt on tensioners more than poly wire does. I wouldn't put anything past Gibson, did you see that video on YouTube where they quickly show the "chambering" of Les Pauls now, total swiss cheese, they're not Les Pauls anymore, sad.

[Mike Sulzer]

did you see that video on YouTube where they quickly show the "chambering" of Les Pauls now, total swiss cheese, they're not Les Pauls anymore, sad.

I guess it is getting harder to get mahog that does not weigh too much. Chambered guitars can sound really good. Maybe the original LP is a thing of the past, but all the more reason to use what is available now to make something really good.

[LtKojak]

did you see that video on YouTube where they quickly show the "chambering" of Les Pauls now, total swiss cheese, they're not Les Pauls anymore, sad.

I don't think chambering is a bad thing per se... if done right, it certainly doesn't hurt the overall basic sound of the instrument.

[jonson]

anything that lightens a guitar is fine by me. Chambering, hollowing right out or lightweight timber, gives them achance to breathe and the sound can change for the better, but I still agree with Possums statement that they are not Les Pauls anymore. Gibson used to call them lites and someone buying one thinking they are made as the origional ones isn't right.

[Possum]

..

Yeah they're not Les Pauls, the insides look like a cross section of an airplane wing or something made for airplanes. I had heard they were doing this but seeing the reality was shocking. There's got to be a major change in how those guitars sound compared to an actual solid body Les Paul. It would change everything, sustain, how the wood reacts to dynamics, frequency response and peaks; if I wanted to buy a Les Paul I wouldn't want something hollowed out like that for authentic LP tone. I would guess collectibility of these hollowcasters in future will be real low....

[Zhangliqun]

The Historics are still solid, except for the ones they specify aren't, like the Cloud 9's, etc.

Back to the original topic, it's been a good while since I made a poly pickup but I recall when I switched to PE that I didn't really notice a difference, so I guess I tentatively fall into the "it's-the-insulation-thickness-not-the-material" camp.

That said, with a few more years experience under my belt since then, if I made a poly now, maybe I would hear it. It stands to reason that if the material the bobbins and baseplates are made of affect the tone (regardless of equal thickness or not), then the nature (not just the thickness) of the material that not only touches but covers every square micrometer of the copper wire itself would have some effect.

So I guess all that's just a fancy way of saying I'm neutral in this debate.

[Mike Sulzer]

It stands to reason that if the material the bobbins and baseplates are made of affect the tone (regardless of equal thickness or not), then the nature (not just the thickness) of the material that not only touches but covers every square micrometer of the copper wire itself would have some effect.

So I guess all that's just a fancy way of saying I'm neutral in this debate.

The conductivity of the base plate is a factor in the generation of eddy currents. It is no surprise that it affects the sound. As long as you use an insulator for the bobbin material, the particular material should not have a big effect. Sure, there could be a small change in the capacitance from the coil to the base plate and cover if you change the dielectric constant of the material.