X2Ns

[kugelspot]

Is there anything special about the actual construction of Dimarzio X2Ns that makes the frequency responce so balanced? I was wondering because I want to make something kind of like that except with neodymium magnets and even more winding (ie, the highest output pickup ever).

[David Schwab]

Balanced? If you call mud balanced, then no.

They just use a big ceramic magnet. Nothing at all special about the design, just a 15K pickup with a ceramic magnet.

[Possum]

...

Isn't it possible to blow up your amp by putting too much voltage in the front end? That or make your amp clip real bad. High power pickups aren't always a good thing. I think they have kinda fallen out of favor in these times, Steve Vai, Satriani, none of those guys use high power pickups, none of the classic rock Gods ever did that I know of...

[kugelspot]

Balanced? If you call mud balanced, then no.

Oh. They're really balanced on bass (which is what I'll be using it for). I thought they were supposed to be on guitar too (and I'm basing that entirely on Dimarzio's website: Treble: 6.5, Mid: 6.5, Bass: 5.5). I thought it was odd they'd have a pretty even frequency response on bass and guitar. So basically these are just high output bass pickups in a guitar humbucker housing, that are being marketed to guitarists? That makes my life a lot easier

[Robert M. Martinelli]

As far as I can remember, X2Ns have been around since the late 70s, ( this means I'm getting old ) and it seems to me Dave Murray and Adrian Smith ( Iron Maiden ) had them installed on their customized strats back then.

They've always been sold as guitar units, though their very high inductance poses the resonant peak at a very low frequency, and their very high winding resistance makes for a very poor "Q factor",( which makes for less "focus" and "character" ), that flattens the frequency response ( this should answer your question about the "even" response as advertised on their site ).

As Possum and David have rightfully pointed out, X2Ns are muddy and they don't make expressive playing any easier. Joe Satriani ( my all-time favorite guitar player ) uses "mid-powered" DiMarzios to let all the subtleties of his touch reach the listener, something the "in yer face" type pickups could never do.

As I've tried to highlight in the past ( together with people way more qualified than I am, like Possum, David, Mike ), past a certain point, winding hot pickups generates more problems than the ones it solves.

The only current exception I am aware are Bill Lawrence's XL500, which are very loud indeed, yet very defined and alive, and definitely not muddy.

FWIW I'm truly enjoying playing my '68 SG Standard with T-Tops, which are in the 7,5 K Ohm range ( and less than 4 H ). Definition, dynamics, tone, touch, vibe - whatever praise would be a feeble attempt to describe what you can get out of this guitar/pickups combination.

Cheers

Bob

[Mike Sulzer]

Isn't it possible to blow up your amp by putting too much voltage in the front end? That or make your amp clip real bad. High power pickups aren't always a good thing. I think they have kinda fallen out of favor in these times, Steve Vai, Satriani, none of those guys use high power pickups, none of the classic rock Gods ever did that I know of...

A passive pickup will not blow up your tube amp no matter how many turns you put on it. Using a hot humbucker to overload the first stage is considered a "feature" by some rather than a "bug", but I think you are better off getting your distortion in a more controlled manner.

[David Schwab]

Oh. They're really balanced on bass (which is what I'll be using it for). I thought they were supposed to be on guitar too (and I'm basing that entirely on Dimarzio's website: Treble: 6.5, Mid: 6.5, Bass: 5.5). I thought it was odd they'd have a pretty even frequency response on bass and guitar. So basically these are just high output bass pickups in a guitar humbucker housing, that are being marketed to guitarists? That makes my life a lot easier

Are you just looking at those numbers, or have you tried one on bass? They sound like crap! Years ago DiMarzio took the X2N, replaced the blades with poles, and sold it as the Model G bass pickup. I had several of them. They sound like crap. It's a muddy pickup with a harsh noisy midrange. They sound a little better in parallel, but not much.

I ended up making thin blades for them and using them as guitar pickups!

You can't wind a pickup that hot and get a clear tone out of it.

Dimarzio still makes the X2NB for bass, and the Model One uses the same bobbins too. They probably discontinued the Model G and made the X2NB a custom order because they didn't sell well.

I make a nice clear bass pickup in a humbucker case.


Here's a broken Model One:

[David Schwab]

The only current exception I am aware are Bill Lawrence's XL500, which are very loud indeed, yet very defined and alive, and definitely not muddy.

Yeah, those pickups are pretty bright! First time I heard one was back in the 70's, installed in a Les Paul and plugged into a Marshall... man that thing was like an ice pick!

[kugelspot]

Are you just looking at those numbers, or have you tried one on bass?

I haven't first hand, but I've heard clips, and John Gallagher (singer/bassists for Raven) has been using them in his basses for years. I think it sounds goods pretty good. I've never even heard the model Gs before, but the fact that it uses poles instead of rails would change the tone quite a bit.

Dimarzio still makes the X2NB for bass, and the Model One uses the same bobbins too. They probably discontinued the Model G and made the X2NB a custom order because they didn't sell well.

Apparently, the X2NB is just a regular X2N that they market as a bass pickup.

[David Schwab]

I haven't first hand, but I've heard clips, and John Gallagher (singer/bassists for Raven) has been using them in his basses for years. I think it sounds goods pretty good. I've never even heard the model Gs before, but the fact that it uses poles instead of rails would change the tone quite a bit.

The poles would lower the inductance and brighten up the tone a bit. But it's just an ugly sounding pickup IMO. I guess if you like the Duncan Quarter Pounders, you would like it... same kind of harsh midrange.

Apparently, the X2NB is just a regular X2N that they market as a bass pickup.

I believe it was wound a bit less... maybe around 12K instead of 15K. They used to have it on their website.

Back on a thread at TalkBass discussing the X2NB, someone asked DiMarzio about it and DiMarzio responded:

An X2N-7 should actually be better than an X2NB. The sound is cleaner and brighter.

The X2N-7 is 13K.

But if you are going for that mushy tone run through an SVT, then maybe you would like it. Personally I loathe SVTs.

[kugelspot]

OK thanks guys. Another n00b question: what separates a good pickup from a bad one. In other words, whats the difference between, for example, an OEM Squire pickup and a Fender MIA Pickup? Is it the magnets, or the winding, or what?

[LtKojak]

OK thanks guys. Another n00b question: what separates a good pickup from a bad one. In other words, whats the difference between, for example, an OEM Squire pickup and a Fender MIA Pickup? Is it the magnets, or the winding, or what?

A p'up is made from several parts that come from several manufacturers that would have their own manufacturer recipes to make that part plus winding the coil, that give us more variables in form of type of wire, wires' alloy, number of turns of the coil pus coil shape and coil type of winding.

The tone produced by a p'up is the result of a huge and complex equation being all those parts, the manufactures recipes and the winder's recipe for coil winding the variables. Do the math and realise why your question can't be answered in a few words.

[kugelspot]

as long as it isn't a 100 page long thesis paper or something, any length is fine by me. I was just wondering how one pickups can sound like crap and another can sound amazing, even though they use seemingly the same parts to create that sound.

[LtKojak]

I was just wondering how one pickups can sound like crap and another can sound amazing, even though they use seemingly the same parts to create that sound.

The key word here is "seemingly". No two parts from different manufacturers are create equally, and the fine p'up makers here took years of R&D to get their products the way they're now and they're still learning new things everyday. Don't even try to grasp the whole process from a few posts in a forum.

The complexity of the equation that a certain tone is produced by a certain p'up in a certain context is kind of a scaled-down version of brain chemistry... you just can't even try to understand it without a certain level of prior knowledge about the elements, the components and their interaction.

If you thought "100 pages of a thesis" as ridiculously long, reality looks more like hundred of thousands of pages read and a lifetime to digest.

Hey, your question sounds kinda like "why Megan Fox is a fox and Rosie O'Donnell is a skunk, they're both carbon-based life forms which are 70% water?"

Anything else we can help you with, grasshopper?

[Robert M. Martinelli]

The key word here is "seemingly". No two parts from different manufacturers are create equally, and the fine p'up makers here took years of R&D to get their products the way they're now and they're still learning new things everyday. Don't even try to grasp the whole process from a few posts in a forum.

The complexity of the equation that a certain tone is produced by a certain p'up in a certain context is kind of a scaled-down version of brain chemistry... you just can't even try to understand it without a certain level of prior knowledge about the elements, the components and their interaction.

If you thought "100 pages of a thesis" as ridiculously long, reality looks more like hundred of thousands of pages read and a lifetime to digest.

Hey, your question sounds kinda like "why Megan Fox is a fox and Rosie O'Donnell is a skank, they're both carbon-based life forms which are 70% water?"

Anything else we can help you with, grasshopper?

Hi Pepe,
( BTW how is it going up there ? )
I agree ...and that's why Frenchmen say "Si jeunesse savait....." which, roughly translated, means "if just young men knew......and if just old men could......"

OTOH there' s still a lot to be learned here, even for the most experienced or educated of us, so I think that anyone can benefit from participating to our discussions....but, to get the most out of it, one has to have ( or has to be willing to build ) a solid background.

Cheers

Bob