Fralin noiseless P90

[Zhangliqun]

Best P90 Pickups Currently on Market? - Telecaster Guitar Forum

See post #23. Does Fralin have a patent on this design?

[salvarsan]

Best P90 Pickups Currently on Market? - Telecaster Guitar Forum

See post #23. Does Fralin have a patent on this design?

I Doubt it.

The sidewinder geometry is decades old and insufficient to confer a patent unless someone from Staten Island, NY is especially determined to patent
prior art. I think Bill Lawrence once had a patent on a sidewinder under the name of Willy Stich.

More recently (in the last 10 years), AGI-Lace patented their Holy Grail
pickups which in addition to having asymmetrical bobbins in a sidewinder
geometry, have the distinctive Lace metal combs to feather the magnetic
field.

I wonder how it sounds.

-drh

[David Schwab]

The sidewinder geometry is decades old and insufficient to confer a patent unless someone from Staten Island, NY is especially determined to patent prior art. I think Bill Lawrence once had a patent on a sidewinder under the name of Willy Stich.

Bill had the patent for the Firebird/Thunderbiard pickups 3902394. It was a rather novel design.

And of course Bill's old L-250 pickups were sidewinders, as well as the EB-0 and L-9S Ripper pickups.

Erno Zwann has a sidewinder patent (5354949) for his Q-Tuner pickups, 'though that's probably more about the three rows of adjustable poles.

So I guess if you patent something about the pickup, not just that it's a sidewinder, you can do it.

I don't see it mentioned anywhere that he applied for a patent.

[Zhangliqun]

I didn't see anything on his site for that either, but I wanted to find out if I could before bothering to experiment with such a design with my own refinements, maybe come up with something worthwhile and then find out I'm restrained by somebody else's patent.

I guess if there was a patent it would NOT be the fact that it's a sidewinder per se (the Gibson SG basses were doing that a long time ago for one) but something to do with it being a special version of the noiseless P90.

I'm very curious about the magnet orientation. I assume it's same poles facing the screws like a standard P90, but then I'm wondering what holds the bobbins in place if they're repelling each other. On a normal P90 they're held in place by the clamping effect of the bobbin and baseplate via the bobbin mount screws. These being hollow mini-humbucker style bobbins, there's nowhere to screw it in place, so....???

[rocket]

The sidewinderdesign seems to be quite unpopular, apart from the Lawrence PUs.
I am looking sidewinder Firebird PUs and can't find them.

Does anyone make them?

[David Schwab]

I'm very curious about the magnet orientation. I assume it's same poles facing the screws like a standard P90, but then I'm wondering what holds the bobbins in place if they're repelling each other. On a normal P90 they're held in place by the clamping effect of the bobbin and baseplate via the bobbin mount screws. These being hollow mini-humbucker style bobbins, there's nowhere to screw it in place, so....???

Both coils will have the same magnet pole facing the pole pieces, just like on a P-90. He has a keeper in the middle, so the magnets are stuck to that.

I've made pickups with two ceramic magnets facing a blade, and they stick to the blade just fine without repelling.

He might also have the keeper extending into the coils somewhat.

[LtKojak]

More recently (in the last 10 years), AGI-Lace patented their Holy Grail pickups which in addition to having asymmetrical bobbins in a sidewinder geometry, have the distinctive Lace metal combs to feather the magnetic field.

I wonder how it sounds.

-drh

Well, I've got a PRS SE EG in which I've put a Holy Grail set.

They sound close to a Fender Custom '54 set, but they just don't behave like single coils, they have no dynamics. They're quite alright in the studio, specially when used to strumming and/or arpeggioing, but in my case being a very dynamic player in a live situation, they don't fullfill my needs.

Their A5 rods are very strong, you have to set'em up fairly far away from the strings to avoid strat-itis which occur on all strings, not just the thickest ones. Weird, to say the least.

[spud1950]

I assume the coils are of opposite wind direction like a conventional humbucker,but how does the sidewinder design achieve noise cancellation without having two sets of pole pieces of opposite magnetic polarity?

[David Schwab]

I assume the coils are of opposite wind direction like a conventional humbucker,but how does the sidewinder design achieve noise cancellation without having two sets of pole pieces of opposite magnetic polarity?

Conventional humbuckers have both coils wound in the same direction. They are wired out-of-phase.

Because they are out of phase, and they sense the string in two locations, they need the opposite magnetic polarity.

The sidewinder's two coils share a common set of pole pieces, and the two coils are wired out-of-phase.

[Mike Sulzer]

I assume the coils are of opposite wind direction like a conventional humbucker,but how does the sidewinder design achieve noise cancellation without having two sets of pole pieces of opposite magnetic polarity?

With the coils pointing horizontal along the strings the primary sensitivity to hum magnetic fields is along the direction of the strings also. The coils see essentially the same hum field. Therefore, if we wire the coils out of phase, the responses to the hum fields cancel.

The screws carry the vertical field fluctuations from the strings down the the coil cores, where they bend and pass through the coils. But since they go in the right end of one coil and the left end of the other, they field fluctuations point in opposite directions. The signals would cancel, but the signals add because we wired the coils out of phase so that the hum fields would cancel.

This design does not cancel vertical hum fields; the screws do cause some sensitivity to vertical hum fields, but this is not the dominant sensitivity, and so the result is pretty good cancelation.

[salvarsan]

Well, I've got a PRS SE EG in which I've put a Holy Grail set.
...
but they just don't behave like single coils, they have no dynamics.

Ooops. I was absent-mindedly referring to the Fralin humbucker P90's.


As for the AGI-Lace Holy Grails, I owned a set and was disappointed by their
lack of bottom end as well as lack of dynamics. In a friend's words,
"They got no ass."


I certainly agree that they don't behave like single coils -- they are
sidewinders and wound out to ~11K with something thinner than hair
just to get enough voltage out of them under ordinary volume/tone
circuit loads.


Objections aside, they are impressively innovative, to be shelved in the
"noble failure" bin.


-drh

[David Schwab]

Objections aside, they are impressively innovative, to be shelved in the "noble failure" bin.

I agree. I think Lace really does their own thing. Even the regular single coil Sensors are a unique design. They tend to be a bit thin sounding, and do lack dynamics, but I respect them for not doing the same old thing. I have one at the neck position on a Charvel Strat. Someone gave me a set.

The Alumitones sound pretty good on bass.

[LtKojak]

As for the AGI-Lace Holy Grails, I owned a set and was disappointed by their lack of bottom end as well as lack of dynamics. In a friend's words, "They got no ass."

I can relate to that perfectly. Great choice of words!

I certainly agree that they don't behave like single coils -- they are sidewinders and wound out to ~11K with something thinner than hair just to get enough voltage out of them under ordinary volume/tone circuit loads.

Objections aside, they are impressively innovative, to be shelved in the "noble failure" bin.

Yeah, I agree with this too. I DESPERATELY wanted to lik'em... and for a while I even thought that it must've been something wrong with ME!

Now that guitar hosts a StewMac's Golden Age single coil set with the hottest of the two bridge p'ups and I've been able to nail John Mayer's recorded strat tone even having a shorter scale than the Fender.

Hey, ok, they're NOT Fralins, but you won't certainly hear me complaint about my strat sound. Very Boo-tick like!