Make your own covers.

[Bruce Johnson]

Lion;

It's just a guess on my part, but those original covers may have simply been cast in silicone molds. That can be done easily in a small shop with minimal equipment. It's not real fast, per part, but it works for small runs. The logo on the top is engraved one time in the master, and then is reproduced by the silicone mold. People often refer to any plastic parts as "injection molded" when they may just be cast. As mentioned above, injection molding has high tooling costs and requires some big machinery. Well out of the range of a little guitar shop.

If I were making those covers in a small production run, I'd cast them. You can do this process yourself, making up the masters and molds, and casting up a couple of covers. It takes a little patience and craftsmanship, but can be done with home shop equipment.

Take a look at the other thread on this forum about making custom bobbins, where we talk about casting and molding techniques.

[jonson]

Casting is a way to go and would serve Lions problem but the origionals wern't cast in 1965. Thats a fair few years to early to obtain silicone molding rubber compounds.

[Bruce Johnson]

Casting is a way to go and would serve Lions problem but the origionals wern't cast in 1965. Thats a fair few years to early to obtain silicone molding rubber compounds.

Are you sure about that? The Ampeg Scroll Basses of '66-'69 (my specialty) have several cast plastic parts. There was some kind of pourable rubber molding compound available.

[Joe Gwinn]

Casting is a way to go and would serve Lions problem but the originals wern't cast in 1965. That's a fair few years to early to obtain silicone molding rubber compounds.

Silicon rubber molds were expensive but available in the 1960s. We used them at RCA in 1966 or so. The red RTV was what one used. I still have a few of the molds I made, such as one to make fake quarters out of 63-37 solder. They looked plausible, but the minute you touched it you knew. Talk about a lead nickel.

[jonson]

Good quality silicone for a job like this came in in the seventies and as Joe said it was pourable rubber/vinyl that was being used. In the 60/s the jewel trade especially were using natural rubber and lost wax as Possom should be able to confirm. A lot of people think the Burns thing may have been big but it was typical english cottage industrie in a small workshop and a few sheds (no digs going on there Spence) and very small runs of guitars so all was kept cheap.
My concern for Lion would be a lot of work without having a cover to take a mold from in the first place so a fair bit of machining or carving to get a goood pattern to work from. Spence's idea of this thread is I think to give guys a chance to whittle a shape and pull some plastic over it and trim to finish. Not a lot has changed here in the UK as Burns now under the ownership of Barry Gibson are made in the far east but up untill about 4 years ago only the Marquee's were made there and the rest were done here by my ex apprentice Dan Mcphearson working on his own in about 1500 sq feet.

[David Schwab]

A lot of people think the Burns thing may have been big but it was typical english cottage industrie in a small workshop and a few sheds (no digs going on there Spence) and very small runs of guitars so all was kept cheap.

Right, and didn't they have a lot of the guitars made by Eko in Italy?

I know Vox did.

[jonson]

Not as far as I rember David. Eko was Olivero Pigini in Recanati/Italy and their real bent was the plastic covered stuff like the 700 4v There were other makes like Bartolini and Crucianelli. Guitars finished like piano accordians with motor scooter style hardwear. Lots of luverly push buttons and rocker switches. I used to look at them in the shops with awe and wish I'd bought a load as they are all collectors items now. Jim started Burns in 1959 with Henry Weill and sold it off to The American Baldwin company in 65, but by 70 all ceased. Jim started again in 74 til 77 and again in 79 but the whole thing collapsed in 1983.

[David Schwab]

Not as far as I rember David. Eko was Olivero Pigini in Recanati/Italy and their real bent was the plastic covered stuff like the 700 4v There were other makes like Bartolini and Crucianelli. Guitars finished like piano accordians with motor scooter style hardwear. Lots of luverly push buttons and rocker switches. I used to look at them in the shops with awe and wish I'd bought a load as they are all collectors items now. Jim started Burns in 1959 with Henry Weill and sold it off to The American Baldwin company in 65, but by 70 all ceased. Jim started again in 74 til 77 and again in 79 but the whole thing collapsed in 1983.

I was thinking of Vox guitars. I had a Phantom XII that was made by Eko in Italy.

Yeah, all those Italian guitars in the 60's... very wild stuff. I kind of like it.

I've never had a Burns, but I did own a Hayman guitar at one point, and had wanted to buy a Hayman bass I saw used, but someone else got it first.

Ah, but look at the new Italian design Burns:



Same as the Pagelli I posted in this thread:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t14856/

[jonson]

Different, saw these on Barry's stand in Frankfurt earlier in the year along with a copy of a Guyatone LG30 and a copy Watkins rapier. Wrong pickups wrong everything. If you are going to do a repro then at least try and get it right. Still all down to price, quite sad really. Iv'e got 10 Rapiers here for rebuild and paint, and there are bits missing including knobs and hardwear but if I can fashion bridges and knobs with my set up then surely our oriental brothers with their copy abilities can. Reason really why I'm enthusiastic and giving Spence what help I can with his project, so that old stuff that was vacuumed can still be reproduced rather than as was said, cut down allpratts stuff.

[David Schwab]

I agree... same thing with the new Hagstroms and all.. they just get the body looking similar, and then use some generic pickups and bridges.

Then you take Fender's own repros... they don't get it right either, like Jazzmaster pickups. It's all cosmetic.

[lion]

I know The Burns factory was merely just a small workshop in the 60’s, and that production cost always was an issue. Nevertheless some of the stuff they turned out were high – some even excellent – quality IMO. Also several parts designed by JB were rather unusual and complex and couldn’t have been cheap considering the low production numbers. For example the Jazz/splitsound trem units, the Marvin trem (only 350 made) ect. Even the scratchplates for some model – being machined/engraved – must have had relatively high cost involved per unit.

The Nu-Sonic plastic covers are a mystery to me.
The Nu-sonic guitar was introduced in ’64 to replace the Sonic series and was marketed as having NEW Nu-sonic pickups – that could be a reason for Jim to want them to look different with the plastic covers – but vacuum formed, injection molded or cast it seems strange how he could justify the costs, considering that the Nu-sonic was a budget model at the bottom of the Burns line.

Furthermore I have reports (from a fairly reliable source) that under the plastic covers the pickups were just conventional Tri-sonics. (Can anyone confirm this?), which means that there was no technical reasons for going to the expense of having the plastic covers made, standard Tri-sonics covers could have been used instead.

If the picups were indeed conventionalle Tri-sonic, there seems to be at least 3 possible reasons for the plastic covers:
1) Visual appearence – giving the impression the pickups were special/newly developed
2) Costs – if the plastic covers were actually cheaper than having brass top covers stamped, polished and plated (I doubt that to be the case)
3) Sound - with plastic covers instead of chrome the Tri-sonics would be brighter sounding (brass covers cuts highs)
What do you think?

Bruce – I’ve read the thread re custom bobbins, but casting seems to be outside what I can manage (really impressive work you are doing).

Spence – I havent’s seen Nu-sonic covers in real life, but the pictures I’ve gathered indicates that several methodes could have been used. Pictures 1 clearly shows engraving, whereas pic 2 seems more like printing wearing off.

I thinks my best chance for making a set of reproductions covers would be the vacuum forming method.
I’m researching material suppliers in my area - styrene and ABS doesn’t seem to be available in black in 1-2 mm thickness.

NB. Does anyone know how to get in contact with Eddie Cross in Ilford? The company is listed in online directories, but none of the phone numbers seems to be correct.

[jonson]

Hi Lion, Eddie Cross died a fair few years ago and his son took over the business. I havn't been there since Eddie died but I do know that his son was doing some work for the present Burns set up. Dan may have an up to date contact number but the bugger is trailing his arse round Peru on a timber scouting foray. Once he is back I will ask and at the same time Check the local phone directory for you.

[Spence]

Hi Lion, Eddie Cross died a fair few years ago .....

Eddie, Cross? I bet he was bloody furious

[lion]

.....Dan may have an up to date contact number ...... Once he is back I will ask and at the same time Check the local phone directory for you.

Hi jonson - that would be great thanks.

Re Eddie Cross junior, apart from being involved in later Burns activities with barry Gibson, it's also reported the he has - at least to some degree -assisted with individual parts for restoration project ect.

[Electricdaveyboy]

Were do I get the right stuff ?

Hello Vacuum Forming Pickupmakers,
I would like to make p- 90 covers can you recommend a source for sheets.
Black seems not to be a problem but cream, can not find anything.
Tx
David