What would this pickup sound like in theory?

[belwar]

I have an idea in my head of what the pickup below would sound like. I dont want to state my opinion, because im interested what others would think it should sound like.

- Bridge position humbucker
- Placed on the guitar at an angle (so the bass strings are further away from the bridge
- Taller than normal bucker bobbins (= or > 3/8"), but same width as a bucker bobbin
- Slightly lower gauge wire (40-41 awg)
- Full bobbins
- tightly packed wire (high TPL)
- Higher Tension (near the stretching point)
- 5mm diameter slugs on one side, pole screws on the other

Options:
Nickel Silver Cover
A2 or A5 magnet

I want to reach about 7.5-7.7 DCR.

bel

[Possum]

.....

Taller bobbins=brighter
larger gauge=brighter, but full bobbins will tame some of that.
high tpl=darker
low DCR with big gauge wire=probably same number of winds to reach 8.2K or so with normal 42
tilted with bass away from bridge=seems backwards to me, dunno.
Overall probably somewhat on the clear bright side, you just have to try it to find out.

[David Schwab]

low DCR with big gauge wire=probably same number of winds to reach 8.2K or so with normal 42

No the larger wire would be a lot lower. I can give a real life example. 3500 turns of 42 is 3.8K. The same number of turns on the same bobbin of 40 is 2.3K. So 41 would be in the middle of that. Then of course you can't fit as much on the bobbin either.

The larger gauge wire has an interesting tone. Kind of a scooped midrange with extended top and bottom. It has a looser tone than with 42. Sort of a Jazzmaster tone.

[Possum]

...

I didnt word that correctly, it will take more turns to reach your DCR with the fatter wire than it will with regular 42, so you'll get a noticeably fatter coil. Your design just have to be tried, your bridge angle is weird and thats a consideration, theories won't tell you what its going to sound like, just do it.

[belwar]

Well its easy to say just do it because the design calls for a custom baseplate and cover :> I want to get my ducks in a row before I prototype it. Its going to take at least of week of my life to make the first one.

Making humbucker bobbins is so time consuming. I have this cool 1/4 solid carbide saw that I mount horizontally in the CNC. Its almount like a router because it has 72 teeth and is only 3" in diameter. It makes the core of the bobbin alot easier. But the rest of the details get tough.. the rounded edges, exact size pole holes, et. I guess I'll make the prototypes from delrin or maybe bakelite.

Slugs are easy, screws are easy, keeper and wood spacer are easy.

Now I just have to figure out how to make a prototype cover. I'll probably just cut and solder a cover. I might be able to get away with a 7 string base plate and just re-drill it

[David Schwab]

Well its easy to say just do it because the design calls for a custom baseplate and cover :> I want to get my ducks in a row before I prototype it. Its going to take at least of week of my life to make the first one.

No, make your prototype and see how it sounds. You might hate it, and then you don't need all the other parts!

Making humbucker bobbins is so time consuming. I have this cool 1/4 solid carbide saw that I mount horizontally in the CNC. Its almount like a router because it has 72 teeth and is only 3" in diameter. It makes the core of the bobbin alot easier. But the rest of the details get tough.. the rounded edges, exact size pole holes, et. I guess I'll make the prototypes from delrin or maybe bakelite.

Who you telling! I wish I had a CNC! It took me a good part of an afternoon to make 19 bobbins.

I'm actually going to try my hand at bobbin-less coils à la Kent Armstrong.

Now I just have to figure out how to make a prototype cover. I'll probably just cut and solder a cover. I might be able to get away with a 7 string base plate and just re-drill it

You don't need a cover to see if the pickup is something you want to pursue. I've made a lot of prototypes that were only useful as a learning experience.

[Possum]

....

Well heck make the bobbins Lollar style, forbon and polycarb core, you need to make router templates, couldn't take more than about 3 hours to do the whole thing.

[frankfalbo]

In theory? It would sound like "Hey I'm a big fat pickup, wound by a noob."

Bardens are 41, Charlie Christians in the 30's, sustainer coils (which make terrible sounding pickups) down into the 20's. You do the math. It seems like the combination of 3 or 4 different variables, each traditionally used alone to alter something our ears are already familiar with.

1. Angled mount
2. Taller bobbins
3. Low usage wire gauge
4. High tension

Resonant peak: flatter, broader?
Attack: Crisp, open, undistorted early envelope associated with the larger AWG tamped down from the abundance of tension. What's the insulation thickness?
Tonal footprint: Maybe a little hard and clanky, better for lightly picked cleans than dirty.
Magnet: Too little power and the outer wraps of that fat coil are mostly DC, too much and your "clank" factor increases.

My advice? Pick one or two of those variables and work with those before introducing all of them. I'd start with taller bobbins and angled mount, or taller bobbins and larger diameter wire. Heck you could start with 40AWG on your existing HB bobbin and have something to listen to in a day.

It's probably time to start hearing what your theories are about how it would sound, and what you're hoping to accomplish with it. It's easier to tell you if you're way off or in the ballpark of your expectations.

[David Schwab]

Bardens are 41

I didn't know that! I have some 40 I have been messing with. I want to get some 41. I play in a band with a guitarist with two Barden humbuckers in his LP Custom. They have those taps to sound like single coils.

My advice? Pick one or two of those variables and work with those before introducing all of them.

That's always good advice. If you change too many things at once, and either like or dislike something, you wont know what it was!

[Possum]

......

What you're trying to do is so oddball, really the only way you'll know is to do it and let the chips fall where they may. Once you have one built and installed then you can go from there. I don't know why you would want to angle a bridge pickup with the pickup aimed at picking up the most treble possible, never seen that done and probably a good reason why. If the pickup turns out to be so bright its unbearable then you can back off from there and change things one at a time. But changing angle is going to be hard if you routed something for it, so best to use some kind of test bed guitar rather than build one exactly that way.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

What Possum said.

I've seen a lot of people run into the same sort of problems when they try to decide on mods, figure out a guitar model based on a spec sheet they see online instead of playing it, or decide how to go about picking a custom instrument. Handling one variable at a time and understanding the changes within that spectrum is one thing, but knowing how it'll balance with other variables is another thing and you really just have to try it. Like, saying "maple fingerboard will make this brighter, so I'll use a warmer, lower resistance volume/tone control and it'll be about the same as my favorite rosewood board instrument" is a good example of overthinking things, reducing elements down to bare bones. The basic character of each variable stays intact in the final product, there really isn't a balancing or a canceling out of characteristics. You obviously have a better ear than that, I'm really talking about very basic players that do lots of catalog/internet shopping. Also, this is just my own method of creation. I'd rather get something imperfect and then troubleshoot my way to something good. Other folks on here suggest trying one variable at a time, but I think that leaves too much to the imagination and sometimes leaves you tethered to status-quo designs. The last prototype I had to leave in my guitar for a week before I could decide how it sounds, and another month before I could theorize why it sounded like that. But, now I have somewhere to go... yeah, I'm back at the drawing board (literally) but better armed with all sorts of aural data.

Having said that, I've wondered about angled humbuckers. Angled bridge pickups in strats and teles seem to work well, though I've never heard a straight one to compare it to. Didn't the Gibson Nighthawk have something like that? That may have been a straight pickup just put in at an angle, a la EVH though. I do wonder if the bass strings would end up too muddy, especially if you're using slugs. These other guys are better at guessing, but I'd have to say it would have a lot of thumpy attack, and not a lot of overtones - clear, but perhaps lacking a sweetness on cleaner settings. That's just a gut feeling, though.

You also didn't tell us what color it would be.

[Possum]

...

Its the "overthinking" thing that I part ways with the engineers here sometimes. Nothing replaces putting a nut on a bolt and screwing it down

With humbuckers its very dangerous to change more than one thing at a time. I am almost every day trying different things with humbuckers and they are very very complex little motherf*ckers. If I change more than one thing at a time then you end up not knowing what really happened.

You are right though, in doing experiments its like you really should just play one version at a time for a whole week. If you change coils it takes about that long for the thing to settle down and be what it will be. And even then it will change over the course of a year anyway. If you're testing a new prototype where alot of things are different its best to start with your best guess and start off with something completely different, then if its not hitting it for you, take a good guess and change one thing only, then test again and listen and play for several days at least. First impressions also are usually the worst. Very often I will play something and think yeah I NAILED it. Next day pick it up and play and WTF was I thinking, this sucks. Changing steel parts you also have to give it a few days for the mysterious settling in period to settle in. This stuff is a ton of frustration but you also learn a ton of stuff doing it, if I don't learn about ten new things a week I figure something must be wrong

Angled humbuckers is not new but I have never seen one with the treble side closer to the bridge, I think that is asking for trouble.....

[frankfalbo]

I don't know why you would want to angle a bridge pickup with the pickup aimed at picking up the most treble possible, never seen that done and probably a good reason why.

Wait...what?!

Angled humbuckers is not new but I have never seen one with the treble side closer to the bridge, I think that is asking for trouble.....

Are we talking about the same thing?

[David Schwab]

I don't know why you would want to angle a bridge pickup with the pickup aimed at picking up the most treble possible, never seen that done and probably a good reason why.

Sure you have. I'd rather angle them the other way.

[Possum]

....

Fucking hell, I've been found out, dislexia is not fun...
Actually it would seem to make more sense to angle it the other way