What would this pickup sound like in theory?

[Possum]

....

I had one of those Nighthawks, awful guitars....very poorly made...

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

This is really confusing me, that is the same angle originally suggested, right?

Yeah, those nighthawks incidentally I think are a perfect example of something that looks good on paper but bad in practice. The bridge is entirely wrong for that body design, the body was hollowed out too much, it was just a whole bunch of "honk"... not even a good honk. Like a goose with bronchitis. The early 90s were full of guitar designs that chased the "best of both worlds" ideas combining Fenderish and Gibsonish design elements. It is dying, but it still is alive. You can find Jazzmasters with tune-o-matics, short scale strats w/stop bars and teles with hot humbuckers all over. The custom teles (not made by Fender) I've played with ebony fingerboards are still something I see in recurring nightmares.

Possum - have you found that pickups really do change over time? That is certainly worth knowing, I've never even thought of that - not in the immediate time after assembly, anyway. I was referring to the psychological/pedagogical changes rather than actual objective changes. Psychological that I have to first get over any "new invention" jitters - thinking it is cooler than it is, being more frustrated than you should be, and pedagogical that I have to listen closely and theorize why it sounds the way it does, why it contrasts with what I thought it should sound like. For example, my last model came out with waaaay too much pick attack, and it took me a while to decide whether it was due to thin pole pieces, under-winding, too much flux... after considering these things, I was able to go back to existing pickup models and hear them a bit differently and understand my own design much better. Maybe I'm just slow, but that process doesn't take 10 minutes for me, it takes a month or two.

[guitician]

Jimi had the right idea

[ShannonH]

not quick

For example, my last model came out with waaaay too much pick attack, and it took me a while to decide whether it was due to thin pole pieces, under-winding, too much flux... after considering these things, I was able to go back to existing pickup models and hear them a bit differently and understand my own design much better. Maybe I'm just slow, but that process doesn't take 10 minutes for me, it takes a month or two.

I have to leave a pickup in for about two months or so before I really make a decision. IF it sucks completely, it takes about two weeks ( you want to give it a chance after all!), but if it's decent, it takes a lot longer to get past "happy-itis" to really hear the thing well. IE: I put an open hum into a strat with A8 magnet, 14.1 wind, it was brutal, almost killed me from pick attack and too much compression. I changed the mag to A2, took me a month to finally think it was ok. I had a buddy who really has played everything try it, and the verdict was good, but in the meantime, self doubt abounded. It was a mental shift I had to go through because the original iteration sucked soooo much.

Peace

[belwar]

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys.

What's intriguing me now is which direction to angle to pickup. Im intrigued by going with the treble a little further away, and keeping the bass closer to the bridge.

The customer has some conflicting requests in he description of what he wants. In one sentance he tells me about his love of an SG bridge p/u, but that he wants to try and get some strat tones out of the instrument. He really wants to see the humbucker angled at the bridge.. and from his drawing, fairly heavily angled.

For reference, It's a mahogany strat style guitar with a floyd on it.

[ShannonH]

I had to process...

For reference, It's a mahogany strat style guitar with a floyd on it.

I usually take info like in your beginning to this post and masticate it for a while (I'm always the late answer, sorry). I think wood and scale will make a difference here too. Is he looking for something like a Rio Grande Muy Grande twangbucker configuration?

What you describe is pretty similar to that, with the exception of a baseplate, slugs and screw, and the wire gauge. I think that the wire gauge thing might lead into an untenable morass of tonal issues. If the dude says he likes an SG pickup, then you will probably be better off with a paf-ish wire gauge, and do all the rest as described.

Peace!

PS: I've been thinking of doing a similar thing with 1/4 inch A5 rods, .75 inch long. A tall humbucker with lots of wire and good coil split.

[LtKojak]

I had one of those Nighthawks, awful guitars....very poorly made...

I've used one similar for over five years and 'bout 900 gigs... never failed me once. All it took was a fresh set of strings every two weeks and a little bit of fretwork every year or so.

The bridge p'up was hot in a good way. I didn't like the neck p'up that much and the quack in position n. 4 wasn't that strattish, but it was a good worhorse that served me well until I sold it to get a second hand Valley Arts Strat just like the one Larry Carlton was using at the time.

Really nice trip down to Memory Lane...

[automan]

The customer has some conflicting requests in he description of what he wants. In one sentance he tells me about his love of an SG bridge p/u, but that he wants to try and get some strat tones out of the instrument. He really wants to see the humbucker angled at the bridge.. and from his drawing, fairly heavily angled.

Be careful with a customer like that. With expectations like that, there may be nothing that satisfies him.

If you get everything he is looking for in that one pickup, I'd like you to build me a pickup where each string is a little louder than all the others.

[Possum]

....

Yes, buckers especially change over time, single coils do too but not as noticeable. I notice if I change steel parts they also have to settle in. No one has a good explanation of why this happens. Sometimes if the pickups sit around a long time unplayed it seems like they revert to sounding new too. I had a customer buy a real PAF set once and wrote that they sucked real bad. Well he kept playing them anyway, and after a month or two they became stellar sounding. I can hear a definite change in a new bucker on the second day, the first day they may sound too shrill or edgy, next day they start to sound what they will become. Its interesting but also frustrating as it slows things down and confuses issues....

My Nighthawk was a piece of shit, it had a twisted neck new from the factory and only found out when some hack tried to fret dress it. It took 3 luthiers til one who is a master was able to make it playable. Saul Koll. Remember that name if you live in Portland.

Big thumbs up on the Hendrix post, really makes you think about why does everyone angle pickups the same way, eh?

[soundmasterg]

Hey Belwar, why not build the pickup, and then have someone hold it over the strings while you play on a guitar and you can see which way you like the sound better.......


Greg

[belwar]

I had an interesting discussion with a friend last night about the angling of pickups. I think we both agreed (though I can put words in his mouth) that angling the pickup in the Jimi method makes more sense tonally, but that it would have difficultly being accepterd by the mainstream.

Now I have to make a judgement call for this line of guitars.. Do I do whats best tonally for the instrument, or do I do what is accepted? Over the period of 2000 guitars, how many sales am I going to miss because the pickup "looks funny" to someone, versus how many am I going to gain because it sounds good. Guitar players are not very forgiving of change.

Bel

[belwar]

Hey Belwar, why not build the pickup, and then have someone hold it over the strings while you play on a guitar and you can see which way you like the sound better.......


Greg

Probably what I'll do is build a test guitar with a rectangular pickguard, then just make several iterations of the pickguard to try pickups in different locations. I personally think that part of the sound DOES come from the pickup being anchored to the body.. Particularly in an unpotted coil. Though my experimentation is limited in the area.

[belwar]

Be careful with a customer like that. With expectations like that, there may be nothing that satisfies him.

If you get everything he is looking for in that one pickup, I'd like you to build me a pickup where each string is a little louder than all the others.

Good advice, and normally I agree with you - I avoid these customers like the plauge. However, he's a fairly high profile german artist, and we need the exposure in Germany. Germany is the hardest country to sell guitars in for some reason. We're designing a guitar for him, which may or may not see the light of day as a production model.

[Dave Kerr]

If your testing shows the unconventional format sounds better to you, make the prototype that way and send it out to him, maybe even give him a conventional version as well so he can A/B them. Easy for me to suggest you do double the work, I know...

[LtKojak]

Good advice, and normally I agree with you - I avoid these customers like the plauge. However, he's a fairly high profile german artist, and we need the exposure in Germany. Germany is the hardest country to sell guitars in for some reason. We're designing a guitar for him, which may or may not see the light of day as a production model.

They're some good p'up winders in Germany, and they have a tradition of parts guitars being made all the time since mid '70s.

There's one maker I'm particularly fond of, Harry Haussel. He makes good p'ups with first quality components, most of them made specially for him. He's known for make a lot of "one-off" p'ups of any kind.

http://www.haeussel.com/

Here's a shop that've made their own designs through Haussel: check'em out!

http://www.acys-lounge.de/haeussel-pickups-english.html

HTH,