Bright pickups

[jsimons]

I appologize if I came off sounding like I was hot. Possum, no offense meant and sincerely, thank you for your suggestion. Nightwinder, I saw that you suggested single build plain enamel in an earlier post. Isn't this the same thing that they used to wind the original PAF's with? If you don't mind, could you compare its tone with Poly? I don't have a lot of cash to blow and can only afford one or the other. Thank you everyone for your help thus far. -Jeff

[Pep]

Jeff, I think you are right regarding the SB plain enamel on the PAF's. Anyone else care to chime in? My memory sucks. The difference between the two (PE and POLY) is subtle but it is there. The PE has a drier tone. More vintage sounding to me. Also, I hear a little upper midrange spike in Poly, but maybe that is just me. When you are first getting started you probably won't notice the sublties so much as the overall tone. BTW, I agree with with Nightwinder. Possum knows so much about pickups it's scary. That and he is a good guy. He kicked me square in the nuts the first time I met him though. <grin>, just kidding.

[NightWinder]

My brotha!
Well, some will tell you there is no audible difference, Say Tim Shaw, which you can read in an interview that is posted on the front page. What ever.....Thats Tim Shaw. Again, whatever. Thats sweat of my balls......
PE is very dry,raw and organic in character. I hesitate to say vintage because it really depends on the material you will be using, along with magnet types......Fully charged or degaussed slightly or alot. But nevertheless, the vintage quality is there, and can be manipulated acordingly to your tastes. Here's the catcher......The harmonic structure is sifferent and so are the overtones. Harmonics and the overall drive is the whip. The poly stuff just does'nt do it for me. It has hidden compression, and you DO have to listen carfully for it, but its there. Don't let anyone tell you different! The overtones in poly seem tocome through in a different order too. You will have to hear this for yourself, so you can stand on your own 2 feet and know the truth. Honestly, when you order....I really think you should get poly. WHy? Because....You are comparing HF, which has moreinsulation on it, and poly is has the same charater high mid thing. And its drastically cheaper too. You could also get 42 poly nom max, which is double build to compare with. Note that there will be drastically different tones between the 2(poly and HF, and Pe for that matter). Welcome to the rageing debate of pickup building, oh and welcome to the Forum too. Stick around....You'll learn lots, and figure out who's who.

[corduroyew]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but weren't all the good old fender pickups made with heavy formvar? Why are you inferring that I'm an idiot? I appreciate the help but there is no need to be rude.

Yes, the pre 64 (I think) fender pickups were heavy formvar. The heavy build means a brighter pickup. Like I said before, I use heavy formvar for most of what I do. It's great if you want the early fender sound, but it is a lot brighter than the other stuff. It's got it's uses but it's not for everybody.

[Possum]

just a mean ol' Possum

Sorry didn't mean to be abrasive, duh. Well you learned something huh? Yes most of old Fender stuff, not all though was heavy Formvar. Tele neck pickups for instance. The diameter of the build varied, so the HB formvar thas available now isn't always what they had then. The tone is unique , chimey , quacky, and not for everyone. Personally I love that stuff for strats. I have a sorta geeky techno nerd customer I sold a vintage formvar strat set to complain after a year that he has to turn the treble on his D.R. down to 4 and wonders if this is normal. Well, yeah its normal, turn the bass up too. But shrill they're not. Go look at some Gene Vincent videos on Youtube and in two clips you'll see a brand new 58-59 strat being played through a brand new bassman tweed, talk about twangy bright tone. You either dig it or you don't, and you need to know how to do some other things to pickups using that wire so they don't get super bright. Yes PE in PAFs, but I have a strong suspiscion the wire in those things varied over the years. Seth said they "filled" the bobbins, well if they filled the bobbin why were some 7.3K and others were over 9K? Hint hint.

[madialex]

Seth said they "filled" the bobbins, well if they filled the bobbin why were some 7.3K and others were over 9K? Hint hint.

Ummm, Tension....

[NightWinder]

Ummm, Tension....

The diameter of the build varied, so the HB formvar thats available now isn't always what they had then. (above quote)

[Possum]

tenshun...

I don't think tension would account for that vast difference, you'd have to wind a pretty loose coil to fill it like that. From the vague information I know now those coils weren't wound real tight but they weren't noticeably loose either. It looks like from some info from Jon Gundy that they may have been using that Leesona winder well into the late 70s at least if not longer, I have a TTop coil here and its not spongy loose. I do know for a fact that in '63 the buckers had noticeably overbuilt wire which may have also been used on some earlier PAFs. REad the Shaw interview for hints on that.....

[madialex]

I don't think tension would account for that vast difference, you'd have to wind a pretty loose coil to fill it like that. From the vague information I know now those coils weren't wound real tight but they weren't noticeably loose either. It looks like from some info from Jon Gundy that they may have been using that Leesona winder well into the late 70s at least if not longer, I have a TTop coil here and its not spongy loose. I do know for a fact that in '63 the buckers had noticeably overbuilt wire which may have also been used on some earlier PAFs. REad the Shaw interview for hints on that.....

So the build on different spools was dramaticaly different. And when 1 person would wind say the screw coil with 1 type and someone else would wind with another build type for the slug thats how we ended up with such drastic diff in coils. Never thought about it like that but I guess it could be. I bet though that the women wound with different tensions even with the variable wire builds. Man PAF's are so damned mysterious. And the thing is we may never know.

[Spence]

A few of you guys on here have been shouting me down lately so you can totally disrespect this next piece of pickup crap too.

Some of us on this forum have NOS PE used for PAF's. The thickness of the coating is variable to the extent that it makes you wonder what happened to quality control in those days.

I still refute the flawed memories of Seth lover and Les Paul. These guys can't even agree who did what and who should get the credit for various things.

Variable tensions are almost inevitable but the wire's actual diameter plus the coating thickness are the key factors here.

So I'll just go get off you're forum now

[Pep]

No disrespect here. I appreciate the information and respect your opinion Spence. Seth Lover and Les Paul might as well be smoking crack. Old age is a bitch. Something we can all "look forward to".

[madialex]

A few of you guys on here have been shouting me down lately so you can totally disrespect this next piece of pickup crap too.

Some of us on this forum have NOS PE used for PAF's. The thickness of the coating is variable to the extent that it makes you wonder what happened to quality control in those days.

I still refute the flawed memories of Seth lover and Les Paul. These guys can't even agree who did what and who should get the credit for various things.

Variable tensions are almost inevitable but the wire's actual diameter plus the coating thickness are the key factors here.

So I'll just go get off you're forum now

Hi Spence, I hope I haven't said anything out of the way, you're a cool dude with me. If I have let me apologize now, never meant to.

[Spence]

It's OK. Just trying to share some knowledge and weed out the crap. There's a lot of mythology in this business and if you can just get through that shit you'll find the truth like a bright shining light. It's not healthy for pickup makers to believe the myths even if the customers do.

[NightWinder]

It's OK. Just trying to share some knowledge and weed out the crap. There's a lot of mythology in this business and if you can just get through that shit you'll find the truth like a bright shining light. It's not healthy for pickup makers to believe the myths even if the customers do.

And.....More so there are people who will tell you pure shit and perpously misguide you........Shooting you down everytime. Some claim to be so fucking busy they just dont have the time to post, when in reality they make a handful a month. Wire this , wire that, at the end.......Realise that researching pickups and other peoples work is a Guide line only, not meant to duplicate, but to learn and perfect something all your own.Your Design! PAfs are no mystery...... Whats so mysterious? Not a fucking thing. Most pafs sounded like shit!! Seroiusly. The ones that sounded good.....Are the ones that were ACCIDENTS. DOn't get discouraged if you follow seths, or pauls formulas and find out your duplicate sucks. This PAF shit really blows Donkey Cock!! I really don't even like low ohm pickups, but I guess I made a really big mistake in making them, because all the buzz around my town is my vintage stuff....."you have a real knack for vintage flavor dude" Fuck that shit!!! Try this.....16k A5.....aLL THE HARMONIC CONTENT, and Vintage flavor you could ask for. After you hear it, ask me again if Im sure Its 16 k? Last note: Possum and Spence both have stated the most Obvious........Listen to something you like.....and try to make it? WHith your ears!!! And use 4 conductor and a push pull pot so you can quickly compare each coil and see how it is sounding......Adjust acordingly..............