Treble bleed alternatives

[Mike Sulzer]

It's one of those things where the rubber-meets-the-road, it's where the EE types can't get it (mind over eardrums) but the musicians can (eardrums over mind).

I doubt that Maxwell's equations work any differently for musicians. Any body has an equal opportunity to deny reality, and we all do it from time to time.

I've noticed it's needed (treble bleed) much more by players who use solid state devices/amps and mostly by players who tend set up their live sound with the (guitar) volume knob at 10, then later turn it down and say "hey, where'd my sound go?".

Players that go straight into a tube amp, or set up their sound with the guitar volume under 8 have no need for the treble bleed as a rule.

Setting up with some treble loss dialed in is a good idea if you can get the sound you want that way.

The effect is certainly still there going straight into a tube amp. The effect was know before there were SS amps, right?

[RedHouse]

I doubt that Maxwell's equations work any differently for musicians. Any body has an equal opportunity to deny reality, and we all do it from time to time.

Well the subject has been "discussed" to death on other forums, so I won't bite here, it's sufficient to say try it and see for yourself if you can't hear the difference ...don't be disappointed, many can't.
(and many can't tune their guitars by ear either, relying on electronic tuners)

This is just like the old "Neve" console thing, shunting the 47uF electrolytics that couple segments with .1uF poly's. EE's can't rationalize it with the math so they deny it's audible effect.

[Mike Sulzer]

Well the subject has been "discussed" to death on other forums, so I won't bite here, it's sufficient to say try it and see for yourself if you can't hear the difference ...

Hear the change in tone from turning down the volume control? Of course I can hear that, both on tube and SS amps. Is the effect exactly the same? Of course not, the amps do not sound the same.

But it is still true that if the cable causes a loss of highs when the volume is turned down, using lower capacitance wiring in the guitar cannot get rid of that effect. If you want to support Possum and claim that it does, I have no problem with that. But that does not make it true.

[RedHouse]

Hear the change in tone from turning down the volume control? Of course I can hear that, both on tube and SS amps. Is the effect exactly the same? Of course not, the amps do not sound the same.

But it is still true that if the cable causes a loss of highs when the volume is turned down, using lower capacitance wiring in the guitar cannot get rid of that effect. If you want to support Possum and claim that it does, I have no problem with that. But that does not make it true.

Anyway, we're talking about treble bleed, cable losses are another thread.

[Mike Sulzer]

Anyway, we're talking about treble bleed, cable losses are another thread.

OK, but it is the cable capacitance that causes most of the loss of highs, when the volume is turned down, that the treble bleed is designed to counteract.

[RedHouse]

OK, but it is the cable capacitance that causes most of the loss of highs, when the volume is turned down, that the treble bleed is designed to counteract.

Ok, but even with a 2-inch (0uF) cable it's the treble bleed that we're talking about, never mind the cable capacitance.

[Possum]

....

You definitely need to take care with your wiring harness as too much capacitance there will kill your pickups. Take your average offshore guitar. Make your best set of pickups and put them in. Now rewire the whole guitar with vintage braid wire with no plastic coated thin wire, put good pots and replace the junk tone caps with better ones. Keep the wiring only as long as needed, don't use quick connectors like Epiphones etc. do now. So, basically you got rid of alot of stuff thats capacitance heavy, now your pickups will sound more open and airy with more treble. To me, the wiring harness is a musical part by itself. Of course guitar cables are important, very very important, cheap long cords just kill treble. Many players in trying to emulate classic rock tones of the past completely forget the cables of that era were pretty bad, especially the long coil cords. These worked real well though with really bright strat pickups, like Hendrix. I basically NEVER test pickups in a stock factory harness and always urge my customers to first upgrade their wiring harness before they buy anything from me, especially if they are playing buckers or P90s. Strats and teles seem to suffer less from this than darker pickup guitars.

[Mike Sulzer]

Ok, but even with a 2-inch (0uF) cable it's the treble bleed that we're talking about, never mind the cable capacitance.

I am not sure how to explain this better, but will try again. The series resistance of the vol pot and the capacitance of the cable (and some of the cabling inside the guitar) produce the effect that you are trying to counteract with the treble cap. Without the cable, there is not much of an effect to counteract.

[Steve Conner]

Just so we're all singing from the same songsheet here... What exactly is the difference between the two wiring hookups under discussion?

Is there any electrical difference to the schematic, or are we talking about the difference between cloth covered retro wires and coax?

The only difference I can see between "50s" and "Modern" wiring on a Les Paul is that the lugs on the tone pot are swapped. But because the tone pot is wired as a variable resistor with the third lug unused, swapping them makes no electrical difference.

Or maybe we're all thinking of different schematics when we say "50s" and "Modern". For instance there's the one where the volume controls are wired "backwards" with the pickup connected to the wiper. That may well make the tone control behave differently.

Whatever, if you make the treble bleed cap too big, it can make the guitar sound thin and trashy when the volume is backed off. It only compensates the cable capacitance correctly at one volume setting.

[RedHouse]

You definitely need to take care with your wiring harness as too much capacitance there will kill your pickups. Take your average offshore guitar....

That really only applies to the "offshore" guitars, most decent guitars have decent wire these days and don't really need a new harness installed, but it's nice work ($) if you can get it.
(older Japaneese as well, Teisco etc)

... rewire the whole guitar with vintage braid wire

I'd also disagree to using the "vintage braid" wire, although I certainly understand that comming from a guy that likes the world to be into PAF's.

I prefer a decent 2 conductor with shield so the pickups can be phase adjusted in the control cavity. I'm currently using some decent Canare two conductor, which is like 3-5pF/Ft.

Since most guitars only use between 16-20" of wire to connect the pickups to the pot/switch in the control cavity, I feel one can well afford 6-10pF any hf roll-off is well above the range of the response of the pickup.

I am not sure how to explain this better, but will try again. The series resistance of the vol pot and the capacitance of the cable (and some of the cabling inside the guitar) produce the effect that you are trying to counteract with the treble cap. Without the cable, there is not much of an effect to counteract.

No need to explain Mike, it actually works without you.

This is so reproducable, even a cave man can do it.
(appologys to the Neandrethalls amoung us)

With the treble bleed in place connect a 20 foot cable, note the effect, then connect 1 foot cable, you will note the same tonal effect, which really puts a cramp in your point but again it's one of those rubber-meets-the-road things. That's the beauitiful thing about actually doing listening tests, and using the ears instead of the mind when it comes to sound and music related issues, one can tell if something works without needing any others explainations.

[RedHouse]

Just so we're all singing from the same songsheet here... What exactly is the difference between the two wiring hookups under discussion?

Is there any electrical difference to the schematic, or are we talking about the difference between cloth covered retro wires and coax?

The only difference I can see between "50s" and "Modern" wiring on a Les Paul is that the lugs on the tone pot are swapped. But because the tone pot is wired as a variable resistor with the third lug unused, swapping them makes no electrical difference.

Or maybe we're all thinking of different schematics when we say "50s" and "Modern". For instance there's the one where the volume controls are wired "backwards" with the pickup connected to the wiper. That may well make the tone control behave differently.

Whatever, if you make the treble bleed cap too big, it can make the guitar sound thin and trashy when the volume is backed off. It only compensates the cable capacitance correctly at one volume setting.

The 50's wiring uses the tone-pot connection on the wiper (pin-2) of the volume pot, the modern wiring uses it at the pin-3 (CW) location.

Now EE's will often dismiss this wiring scheme as not having any relavant effect, but if you try it, you'll (should) hear the difference, specially when using the guitar when the volume pot is down from full.
(if you can't don't worry, some people can't)

[Steve Conner]

The 50's wiring uses the tone-pot connection on the wiper (pin-2) of the volume pot, the modern wiring uses it at the pin-3 (CW) location.

Is that the only difference, or does the modern wiring also have the volume controls backwards, feeding the pickup signals to the wipers and taking the output to the jack from the CW terminals?

Either way it's a different circuit, so it could sound different. Wire it one way, and when the volume is down, some of the volume pot's track resistance ends up in series with the tone circuit. Wire it the other way, and that doesn't happen because the tone network is hooked straight across the pickup.

Shielded cable vs. 50s cloth covered is a different issue :-)

[David Schwab]

What exactly is the difference between the two wiring hookups under discussion?

Wishful thinking! Seriously though, if the pickup is connected to the outside lug, and the amp end goes to the wiper, and the tone is connected to the same lug as the pickup, you have a constant interaction between pickup and tone.

If the tone is to the wiper, then as you turn down the volume, you are placing resistance between the pickup and tone control, but you have the tone circuit on the amp end. That probably changes the way the control works, but I don't see where it would stop treble loss, since you are still putting a series resistance after the pickup while also reducing the resistance between the pickup and ground.

...or are we talking about the difference between cloth covered retro wires and coax?

I doubt you'll hear any difference there. I hate that cloth covered crap.

Or maybe we're all thinking of different schematics when we say "50s" and "Modern". For instance there's the one where the volume controls are wired "backwards" with the pickup connected to the wiper. That may well make the tone control behave differently.

A lot of two pickup basses are wired up that way, and I find you get a little more treble loss when turning down. Same is true if you use something like a 1Meg pot. They are brighter when on 10, but sound duller when turning them down. Same is true of 500K vs. 250K, but to a smaller extent.

Whatever, if you make the treble bleed cap too big, it can make the guitar sound thin and trashy at low volume.

That's why you need the resistor there. That mixes some low end back in.

The only guitar I have a treble bleed circuit in is my Tele-Paul. And that was just so I could get that trashy thin tone when the control is almost all the way off. Sometimes a thin sounding guitar fits into the mix better. Often times guitarist use too much low end and that doesn't leave room for the bass and drums. I'm always turning down the bass knobs on the guitarists' amps I play with when they aren't looking!

[Mike Sulzer]

You definitely need to take care with your wiring harness as too much capacitance there will kill your pickups.

Say you have two capacitors in parallel, and one of them is larger than the other. If you want to reduce the total capacitance, it makes more sense to change the one that is larger since it has more effect on the total for the same percentage change. In the case of your guitar, a normal cable to the amp has more capacitance than the wiring harness from the vol pot to the jack. It is also a lot easier to change the cable than to rewire the harness. I do not see much point in redoing the harness.

In any case you need a certain amount of capacitance to get the right sound. There is nothing wrong with the harness providing part of that.

In another discussion, I believe you were trying to find a way to increase the capacitance of the pickup. It seems easier just to leave it in the harness!

[Joe Gwinn]

You definitely need to take care with your wiring harness as too much capacitance there will kill your pickups. Take your average offshore guitar. Make your best set of pickups and put them in. Now rewire the whole guitar with vintage braid wire with no plastic coated thin wire, put good pots and replace the junk tone caps with better ones. Keep the wiring only as long as needed, don't use quick connectors like Epiphones etc. do now. So, basically you got rid of alot of stuff thats capacitance heavy, now your pickups will sound more open and airy with more treble. To me, the wiring harness is a musical part by itself. Of course guitar cables are important, very very important, cheap long cords just kill treble. Many players in trying to emulate classic rock tones of the past completely forget the cables of that era were pretty bad, especially the long coil cords. These worked real well though with really bright strat pickups, like Hendrix. I basically NEVER test pickups in a stock factory harness and always urge my customers to first upgrade their wiring harness before they buy anything from me, especially if they are playing buckers or P90s. Strats and teles seem to suffer less from this than darker pickup guitars.

Given that you changed almost everything, how can you know that the improvement is due to the wiring versus the pots versus whatever?