Best Fender Factory-Made Stratocaster Pickups?

[JGundry]

But I think that this could also explain why some pickups sounded good and others not so much.

Could be. Could be the exceptionally good ones are machine wound on a Coweco.

[belwar]

Ok, so lets assume for the sake of arguement that fender HAD this machine in 1956.. Here are my thoughts on it

1) It likely wouldnt be the ONLY machine used at the fender factory - just as Gibson used the Leesona, Geo Stevens, and the homemade slug winder. One automated winder cannot fill a production easily.
2) It may have been set up for one particular pickup (like say tele neck pickups) or even some pickup design that never saw the light of day!
3) It can take time to setup new equipment and implement it - Often when we implement new technology it sits on our floor for a while - our first CNC sat for 3 years before we carved our first neck.
4) If what he said about hand winding is true in his mind, he may just have not liked it when he got it.

The only way to settle this is going to be to unwind a few 57's, 58's, 59's and 60's and see whats going on. I will do that, but not for another year or so as i'm too wrapped up in tele stuff right now.

More important to me that the specific year used is that Abigail uses it now. Thats says alot about thier confidence in the machine.

[greenfingers]

Your kidding right Dave? The Coweco never wound anything because it is not driven by a rubber band?! Please.

Dave if you owned a Coweco you would know that this Fender owned Coweco is clearly an automated traverse machine. The sloped cam is clearly visible on the front of the the machine. The gears are on the back out of view. The wire guide for the auto traverse is still on it even when Abigail is winding with it!

Again Leo was machine winding when he owned the company. Without rubber bands. We already know that. The question is when exactly it started and what machine was used? This likely 56' Coweco Fender owns is the best evidence so far that answers both of those questions. Fender still owns a lot of the original machinery Leo bought and this Coweco is likely one of those pieces of machinery. Not complicated.

Let me guess, you have the same winder that Fender has, if so, no wonder you want that winder to be responsible for winding their early pickups. Just think of the prestige. Well Curtis Novac used to wind with one and this is what he said.

"I bought a COWECO cam driven auto winder and began to wind pickups with it. But for what ever reason that special tone was LOST.... so it now sits up on the top shelf in my shop".

Maybe Leo thought the same after using it?. Don't really care, I just dont like it when partial truths are woven to create a false history and then capitalized on, I hate Dan Brown's books for that very reason. If the winder turns out to have been used for winding coils, in conjunction with the use of the traverse as early as 56, and those coils are the better sounding ones, Cool,..but if it wasent i dont want that winder to be falsely proclaimed as some sort of auto traverse winding tone monster.

[overdrive]

overdrive, I think this thread has been officially hijacked... lots of fun, though.

Actually it is evolving in a good way...once the auto-winder timeframe has been established, a closer look can be taken at the +/-s of Fender's hand-wound vs machine wound pickups, their variations & overall tonal characteristics.

The 'human element' is still going to enter the picture whether a pickup was machine-made or hand-made. Factors such as consistancy & attention to various specifications in a fast-paced, high-production manufacturing environment will also dictate/play a major role in establishing any 'cut & dried' generalizations about the comparative tonal characteristics of these pickups.

Age factor (of the pickups themselves & the player subjectivity) also enters into the picture. Magnets tend to naturally degauss over time & few of us have had the actual opportunity to play a brand new '54-'59 Fender Stratocaster when they first came out...I was still in diapers.

Shipping scheduling (i.e. getting the darn things out the door) probably played a role in terms of certain variances too. Rush-jobs open the door for this kind of possibility. Prime example(s): consider the variations in Fender nitrocellulose finishes at the time...while most colors were clear-coated, sometimes they didn't bother doing so with the pastels.

But first, let's establish that winder timeframe!

[JGundry]

1.) Could be more than one machine was used. Could be more than one make of machine. But Fender had to start somewhere. Maybe just this one machine supplemented hand winging production for the years before fender went into full hand winding production? We already know that hand and machine winding overlaps. Lots of possibilities.

2.) Extremely unlikely this machine was set up for one pickup and left alone. This machine is perfect for machine winding Fender pickups. The traverse travel is adjusted with incremented knob with a dial on it. Switching from Tele to Strat bobbins is a snap. This machine has a sloped cam so no gear change or cam change would be needed. The wire guide is fine tuned with a simple spring loaded thumb screw.

3.) Again extremely unlikely. You mount the bobbin and go. It probably came the correct gears already installed. You put the same bobbin mounting plate in the machine and you are ready. This thing is compact and super simple to run.

4.) Again whatever Leo said the fact is he was machine and hand winding pickups while he owed the company. The question is was the transition slow like over 4 years? One machine bought to supplement production, then another and another until at one point they commit to doing everything machine wound etc... Since Fender says this is a 56' Coweco this seems the likely scenario. They added this single machine to supplement production in 56'.

As far as finding an early machine wound Fender pickup lets think this over.

1.) How many pickups did Fender wind between 1956 and 60'?

2.) If Fender started machine winding with a single Coweco winder in 1956 to supplement hand winding production when they needed to what percentage of pickups would have been machine wound?

3.) What percentage of Fender pickups made from 1956-60' have failed? 1%? 1/2%?

4.) Now factor in how many people simply cut the wire off a dead Fender pickup to rewind it and paid zero attention to whether it was machine or hand wound.

I repeat. Fender owns this machine. They claim to have owned it since 1956. Why would they have it in 1956 and still have it in 2010? The answer is obvious.

One important fact. Fender was machine winding years before the Fender sale. No theory involved with that one.

[JGundry]

Let me guess, you have the same winder that Fender has, if so, no wonder you want that winder to be responsible for winding their early pickups. Just think of the prestige. Well Curtis Novac used to wind with one and this is what he said.

"I bought a COWECO cam driven auto winder and began to wind pickups with it. But for what ever reason that special tone was LOST.... so it now sits up on the top shelf in my shop".

Maybe Leo thought the same after using it?. Don't really care, I just dont like it when partial truths are woven to create a false history and then capitalized on, I hate Dan Brown's books for that very reason. If the winder turns out to have been used for winding coils, in conjunction with the use of the traverse as early as 56, and those coils are the better sounding ones, Cool,..but if it wasent i dont want that winder to be falsely proclaimed as some sort of auto traverse winding tone monster.

Well duh! Yes I have one of these winders! Why did I buy it a couple of years ago? It was a good deal and I knew people like it for pickup winding. Also I knew that Fender was likely machine winding earlier than the conventional wisdom says and I had a hunch that this machine and another might have been used. Just a hunch based upon a few facts. Then I engineered the youtube video of the shows this machine in the Fender Custom shop and that they say has been at Fender since 1956. Crafty eh!

Listen if Don Brown does not like his Coweco I'm happy to buy it.

When I decided I was going to do Fender pickups I decided I would machine wind with the same methods and machines Fender used for auto traverse winding. There are lots and lots of guys hand winding. I machine wind with the vintage winders. I have been actively looking or this information for Gibson and Fender machines for years now. It is out there but you have to know what to look for. This video is a prime example. This entire topic is really just trying to sort out what really happened with Fender machine winding. In order to do this you have to take the evidence as it comes and work out different scenarios. It is not a plot or an attempt to deceive.

[LtKojak]

So much speculation, so little time...

[Possum]

...

Thats the problem, this is 99.99999% pure speculation and zero hard proof. Jon has a rare brain disease called winderitis. I'm afraid to post the photo of the '66 Fender winder knowing it will send him into another seizure, I think he needs to go fishing as Don Mare likes to say....

[Possum]

....

A straight vintage autowinder as Novak commented is a bad way to wind early type Fender pickups and I agree with his assessment and maybe that Coweco at Fender was a dust collector too. The fact it has no rubber band on it means it didn't wind pickups, because belt drive created the problem that frustated Leo no end. They spent alot of money trying to solve the problem that rubber bands solved. Read The G&L book...
I use my CNC winder to wind my strat stuff but NEVER do I use the same repeated traverse single turns per layer. And my winder has rubber bands on it :-)

[theboss]

The G&l book Possum is talking about is available online through google books. If you do a google search of "leo fender rubber band winder" it will give you the exact page. Pages 51 and 52.

[JGundry]

A straight vintage autowinder as Novak commented is a bad way to wind early type Fender pickups and I agree with his assessment and maybe that Coweco at Fender was a dust collector too. The fact it has no rubber band on it means it didn't wind pickups, because belt drive created the problem that frustated Leo no end. They spent alot of money trying to solve the problem that rubber bands solved. Read The G&L book...
I use my CNC winder to wind my strat stuff but NEVER do I use the same repeated traverse single turns per layer. And my winder has rubber bands on it :-)

From what I can tell from reading that Leo spent no money on the rubber bands but went with it because he like the results when they were working out the pickup design early on. Again Leo did machine wind pickups years prior to the CBS sale!

The Coweco CS has a drive belt that by design is meant to slip. No rubber bands needed with the Coweco CS. It also has a two pulley wire guide that evens out the jerking of the wire. The Coweco winds pickups like a mofo. Probably why Leo had to have one. Leo probably saw it and said to Fullerton "Why the fuck didn't didn't someone tell me about this thing 5 years ago!".

I hate to pull rank on this one Dave but at this point I know these old machines inside out. In addition to the Leesona 102 I have two Coweco machines, 5 Geo Stevens, a Meteor, 3 Bachi winders and a Gibson made winder from the old factory. All of these machines were used to make golden era Gibson and Fender pickups and all of them do their own thing. The Coweco CS is unique with the slipping belt design.

Dave it sounds like you are neither making a Fender hand wound style pickup or a Fender machine wound pickup. That's cool though. I want the same gear that Fender and Gibson used in the Golden era of machine winding. This Coweco is clearly one of those pieces of gear.

[Possum]

...

You didn't read the book, rubber bands have nothing to do with slip, they don't slip. If you want to market your winder as a pre-60's Fender winder, I wouldn't put myself out there as a target for ridicule like that, and the pickups for sure won't sound like what was made by "Josie" and friends. Good luck with that...

[JGundry]

You didn't read the book, rubber bands have nothing to do with slip, they don't slip. If you want to market your winder as a pre-60's Fender winder, I wouldn't put myself out there as a target for ridicule like that, and the pickups for sure won't sound like what was made by "Josie" and friends. Good luck with that...

Ridicule? Hmmmmmmmm. Thanks. I can't believe how closed minded you are about this. If you were always this rigid you would never have made a computer controlled machine out of some bits of plywood and surplus electronics.

I read that passage. It provided a reciprocal action that aided in hand winding. The Coweco CS could easily have had a rubber band drive it. But there is no need. Double traverse guide pulleys even it out just fine. Abigail seems to do well with it even without the pulleys. So much for needing rubber bands. Or maybe it has one and it is black?!

I'm interested in the facts about this. And the fact is Fender started machine winding during Leos ownership. When exactly is the open question. It has already been established that Fender machine wound pickups in 1960. The real question is what is up with the 4 years between the supposed date of this machines arrival at Fender in 1956 and the 1960 date already established?

The reason things like this Fender Coweco go unnoticed is because it goes against conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom often has more to do with myth than fact. Why is it that I found an old 50's era Gibson winder sitting in the old factory? Because I knew the Leesona 102 conventional wisdom was not the entire picture. So I asked questions. That is why I found two other machines Gibson used in the 50's. I'm open to there being more. If you don't want to see this Coweco for what it probably is then you won't learn anything from it.

[Possum]

....

You're telling me they machine wound pickups previous to 1960, yet no one has ever seen such a pickup, thats where the your theory falls apart. Reread the rubber band thing you missed the point. If you show me real evidence pickups were wound with machine before '60 then I'll believe it, but I've never seen one, there is no mention in the histories and Leo's predjudice for hand winding is on record. A straight TPL fender pickup doesn't sound very good either, been there done that. I"m not closing my mind to it, and I've always been a "show me the proof" kind of guy and I have questioned just about every pickup myth out there and take nothing based on someone else's word or even generally accepted ideas without proving it for myself. I'm not bashing you Jon, I'm just saying prove it to me and so far, there are no hard facts being presented other than there happens to be a Coweco sitting at Fender, and that some passerby mumbled something on camera. Thats all we know right now. Its up to you to prove this if you want me to believe this really happened, I see no evidence for it. Sure, they could have machine wound then, but I seriously doubt it and evidence weighs against it. Why don't you call Fender and get someone on the phone who has written records showing when it was bought and what it was used for and what it produced, and was it used as an auto winder or a hand winder platform. They kept meticulous records and the books I mentioned have copies of some of that. Call Fender, talk to Seymour, do some work if you want to convince me, thats all I'm saying.

[JGundry]

You're telling me they machine wound pickups previous to 1960, yet no one has ever seen such a pickup, thats where the your theory falls apart. Reread the rubber band thing you missed the point. If you show me real evidence pickups were wound with machine before '60 then I'll believe it, but I've never seen one, there is no mention in the histories and Leo's predjudice for hand winding is on record. A straight TPL fender pickup doesn't sound very good either, been there done that. I"m not closing my mind to it, and I've always been a "show me the proof" kind of guy and I have questioned just about every pickup myth out there and take nothing based on someone else's word or even generally accepted ideas without proving it for myself. I'm not bashing you Jon, I'm just saying prove it to me and so far, there are no hard facts being presented other than there happens to be a Coweco sitting at Fender, and that some passerby mumbled something on camera. Thats all we know right now. Its up to you to prove this if you want me to believe this really happened, I see no evidence for it. Sure, they could have machine wound then, but I seriously doubt it and evidence weighs against it. Why don't you call Fender and get someone on the phone who has written records showing when it was bought and what it was used for and what it produced, and was it used as an auto winder or a hand winder platform. They kept meticulous records and the books I mentioned have copies of some of that. Call Fender, talk to Seymour, do some work if you want to convince me, thats all I'm saying.

You are not reading my posts are you? I am raising the question as to what this machine was doing at Fender between 1956 and 1960.

As for 1960 and machine winding here are your own words. "Read the books written by Forrest White, George Fullerton, etc. etc. The reference books I have say '60 was the earliest, I thought it was later, but guess not." If Seymour is the authority then everything prior to CBS was hand wound according to the Ask Seymour section on his site. But clearly this is not the case.

SO FENDER MACHINE WOUND IN 1960! So if they had this Coweco in 1956 what were they doing with it.

So what it my hunch? If this Coweco was at Fender in 1956 it was making pickups. Establishing whether Fender bought it in 1956 is potentially extremely simple if you can get the ser. number. It could be this machine is from 1960. But then why would someone at Fender say it was from 1956? 1956 is a pretty specific number. They could have said 1989 but they didn't. 1956, hmmmm?

As for proof I don't know everyone. And I don't know that everyone would be as inquisitive as me about this. But let me ask you. How many pickups did Fender make between 1956 and 1960? How many went dead? What percentage of these dead ones did you inspect, did anyone inspect? How many went in the trash? How many were simply stripped and rewound with no investigation at all? I want firm numbers. I'm all about proof also.