Insulation longevity

[ShannonH]

Hi all,
I'm rewinding some Rowe pickups and they seem to all be wound with PE in 44awg. They are all dead, although the connection is still in place at the wire and there are no physical damages. I figure (I may be wrong) that the wire and insulation just broke somewhere, either through sonic vibration or some other environmental factor, especially since this style of pickup is not potted.

My questions is, does PE stand up as well as Poly? I ask because I really don't want to wind pickups that in 10 - 20 years of use go to crap because the insulation on the wire is sheisse.
Thanks for weighing in.

Shannon

[kevinT]

Both Jason and Wolfe have confirmed that older PE insulated magnet wire has the tendency to break down and flake off. At what point does the enamel start to deteriorate is hard to say. A lot of it, I'm sure, has to do with what type of environmental conditions that the wire was exposed to. This topic started World War III a couple years ago when I brought the topic up to discuss on the forum for those folks who can remember.

[belwar]

Hi all,
I'm rewinding some Rowe pickups and they seem to all be wound with PE in 44awg. They are all dead, although the connection is still in place at the wire and there are no physical damages. I figure (I may be wrong) that the wire and insulation just broke somewhere, either through sonic vibration or some other environmental factor, especially since this style of pickup is not potted.

My questions is, does PE stand up as well as Poly? I ask because I really don't want to wind pickups that in 10 - 20 years of use go to crap because the insulation on the wire is sheisse.
Thanks for weighing in.

Shannon

Which ones are you rewinding? I'm really interested in finding out the Turns per layer on the rowe's. They were wound on the famed leesona 102 and I want to know if they used the stock traverse settings or changed it. If you want to share im all ears!

[Joe Gwinn]

I suspect that there is no single answer, and not all manufacturers made the same wire, even if it was nominally "PE" or whatever. Getting the right formula for the coating is and was quite the trick. For one thing, the coating must have more or less the same mechanical properties as copper, or it won't stay on the wire when it is stretched during winding (too hard), or alternately will be cut by other windings laying on top (too soft). It's a black art.

[Possum]

...

I have a roll of AWC from 2004 and the insulation is flaking off, the roll is basically dead. I see alot of dead PE wound vintage pickups and generally you'll find one small point where the insulation failed and the wire was eaten through by oxidation. I see this alot in humbuckers that have no covers on them because one drop of sweat got in there, covers ARE a good thing. But I see this in TTops alot too and that is poly wire. No rules I don't think....

[pete n]

Would wax potting help or would the insulation still eventually start flaking??

[ShannonH]

ditto

Would wax potting help or would the insulation still eventually start flaking??

That was my next question

[Joe Gwinn]

Would wax potting help or would the insulation still eventually start flaking??

Wax will not prevent flaking, as wax is too soft to have the slightest effect. Wax may prevent subsequent corrosion induced breakage of the wire, but this is not going to be reliable.

[Possum]

....

Old Fender single coils were waxed solid, but the alnico rods would rust and this would kill the winds that were wound right on them. Otherwise wax will help, I have coils I cut off old strat pickups and the wire is completely embedded and solid in wax, so I don't see how insulation could be damaged once it was completely covered. If there was already an area where the insulation had flaked off it conceivably could fail there with wax around it, maybe, but it would be protected from moisture. All the ones I've seen failed due to rust...

[ShannonH]

ok

Which ones are you rewinding? I'm really interested in finding out the Turns per layer on the rowe's. They were wound on the famed leesona 102 and I want to know if they used the stock traverse settings or changed it. If you want to share im all ears!

I don't usually take the time to unwind ( I take the "hack it off with an xacto" approach) but I will for you. You want turns per layer and total turns?

[belwar]

you = awsome!

Im really just interested in the turns per layer, the total turn count can be determined pretty easily.

Matthew

[ShannonH]

per layer, try one

So I have only been able to peel one layer so far. I started at the edge, unwinding to the other edge, where the wire broke because it was under the previous layers. I counted 99 turns. I'll try again on another coil, although the adhesive is hiding the start on one of the coils.

Shannon

[belwar]

So I have only been able to peel one layer so far. I started at the edge, unwinding to the other edge, where the wire broke because it was under the previous layers. I counted 99 turns. I'll try again on another coil, although the adhesive is hiding the start on one of the coils.

Shannon

I was expecting 100 tpl so that confirms it. Very cool! Thank you very much

[tedmich]

vacuum assisted CA impregnation?

[ShannonH]

vacuum assisted CA impregnation?

I would be concerned about repairability (once impregnated, always impregnated) and cost. Plus, wouldn't lacquer be easier?