My Alnico 5 Magnet Test

[Mike Sulzer]

I don't think it has anything to do with string pull,...

Why not? If it is a real audible effect it must have a cause. There is not much to choose from here.

[Bill M]

I'm attaching a couple of sound samples to demonstrate what I got going from 830 down to 400. I used a bit of gain since the clean setting was not as obvious. Please don't laugh at my playing skills!

I hear quite a bit of difference between the 400 and the 830 gauss. 830 is more open sounding. The 400 sounds muffled.

[uvacom]

I'm attaching a couple of sound samples to demonstrate what I got going from 830 down to 400. I used a bit of gain since the clean setting was not as obvious. Please don't laugh at my playing skills!

Sounds quite different to me.

[David King]

Not to change the subject here but how could DiMarzio patent an airgap when pedal steel guitar pickups have been doing that for 60 years?

[Mike Sulzer]

Sounds quite different to me.

Yes, quite different, but it sounds to me like a difference in the higher harmonics from a change in level into a non-linear circuit.

(Higher level, more distortion)

Other differences might be hidden in there as well.

[Possum]

...

I listened to the clips and heard a difference right away. The 400 sounds much duller and less sparkly. Turn OFF the distortion, then listen. Alnico doesn't sound different because of guass only, its alloy content is different is where the biggest difference is happening. I never test pickups with distortion, but I"m doing PAF's and they need to sound beautiful played clean. Pickups designed for use with distortion are usually kinda flat and boring sounding played clean, EMG's are a prime example of that. I finished a neck pickup a couple weeks ago and degauss the magnet to 400 since alot of old PAF magnets degraded to that point and the neck sounded rather lifeless, so boosted it to 550 and it came alive. These differences are easily heard in clean playing....

[uvacom]

Yes, quite different, but it sounds to me like a difference in the higher harmonics from a change in level into a non-linear circuit.

(Higher level, more distortion)

Other differences might be hidden in there as well.

I would agree that partially it's because of the increased distortion, but just going by ear I detect a shift upwards in the resonant peak of the pickup as well.

[Mike Sulzer]

I would agree that partially it's because of the increased distortion, but just going by ear I detect a shift upwards in the resonant peak of the pickup as well.

The only way to tell is to try it without the distortion as Possum said.

[uvacom]

The only way to tell is to try it without the distortion as Possum said.

True enough. I looked at the files in wavelab, it looks like whatever he recorded with got recorded too hot anyway and smashed the peaks of the waveform. so turning down the mic pre gain when recording couldn't hurt either.

[tonedeciple]

These differences are easily heard in clean playing....

I started out with a clean setting, but decided to record with a little distortion as the difference seemed more pronounced. I have to say this test has helped me to better understand what happens when you lower the gauss. From 830 down to 550 reduced string pull, but did little to change the tone. However, when I dropped all the way down to 400 the tone lost its sparkle. I also learned that if a pickup shows more than 9k Ohms DCR, I'd better start looking at ceramic if I want to preserve the top end.

I really want to stick with a lower number of turns, but it's tough to convince some of the kids out there who want 15k humbuckers that lower power means more tone.

[Possum]

....

Its not that simple. The "kids" out there think 15K is like 200 octane gasoline or something. "K" is not a measure of output at all. You can't compare DC resistances of 44, 43, and 42 gauge wire against eachother because the fatter guages have less ohms per foot. The good sounding PAFs, the real ones were mostly 8K and under. There are other factors like smaller guage wire makes smaller diameter coils which put them in close to the magnetic action and makes a more powerful feeling/sounding pickup, but you put too much wire on, say 20K or over that you have so much wire on there it chokes the treble off and you get an ugly nasally sounding pickup, yet some kid probably thinks a 20K pickup is going to be loud and powerful when mostly it will sound less loud because a big range of treble frequencies are gone. EAch gauge of wire has its own sound, and then again it depends on who made the wire. I just have a bunch of vintage and modern magnet wires analyzed and the modern wire was all over the place, lot of it with pretty thick insulation, which is why modern magnet wire sounds so much brighter than magnet wire before about 1965. There are other reasons too. You should try different gauges of wire using whatever parts you can get and spend a long time listening to each type. There is really nothing simple, no simple rules for making a good sounding pickup, it all depends on hours and hours and tons of burned up magnet wire to find the good stuff.

[soundmasterg]

The other thing to consider when swapping magnets around and trying to account for why the difference in sound is the different composition of each magnet material. The different metals in each magnet type make a big difference in tone all by themselves. you can really only get an accurate idea of what happens when you degauss by sticking with the same magnet type....aka A5 full as compared to A5 degaused.

Greg

[David Schwab]

I started out with a clean setting, but decided to record with a little distortion as the difference seemed more pronounced.

That wasn't a little distortion! It sounded like you were playing through an old Maestro fuzz tone.

I like to wind bright sounding neck humbuckers (for guitar), and prefer to use an alnico II or a weaker alnico V so it's not too shrill sounding. When listening to a clean neck pickup tone you can really hear the difference in magnets. That's without covers. Covers usually ruin the tone IMO.

[tonedeciple]

it all depends on hours and hours and tons of burned up magnet wire to find the good stuff.

I've already got a stack of empty spools in my basement and more on the way. I agree with what you say about the modern wire. That, along with my concerns over bars that come magnetized, are why I've decided to dive deeper into this mysterious art.

When I started making pickups for the guitars I build, I used the opportunity to experiment with different wire and magnets. I have what I feel is a pretty good recipe for what I like, but now I have requests from other builders to make pickups for their guitar projects.

I recently made an approximation of a DiMarzio Super Distortion for a customer who wanted that tone. He'll be installing them in the next day or so and right now I'm crossing my fingers in hopes he'll like the tone. After all, I could only approximate it.

I really like the idea of making and selling pickups, but I rather sell what I think sounds good rather than trying to mimic other designs. Why? Because the supply chain is limited and unreliable.

I would love it if one of the big wire makers would show up on this forum and say something like, "Hey guys, we're going to do a 1,000 pound run of vintage spec plain enamel. Can you help us to get the spec right?"

[David Schwab]

I also learned that if a pickup shows more than 9k Ohms DCR, I'd better start looking at ceramic if I want to preserve the top end.

I really want to stick with a lower number of turns, but it's tough to convince some of the kids out there who want 15k humbuckers that lower power means more tone.

You need to start forgetting about the DC resistance and go by number of turns. The number of turns determines the output along with magnet strength and the overall design, not the DC resistance.

As an example, a pickup wound with 44 AWG wire will get up past 9K in no time, and wont have very much wire on it, and will sound very bright with alnico magnets.

Those 15K humbuckers are 15K because they are using 43 or 44 AWG wire. If you wound one to 15K with 42 AWG the coils would be very large!

Pickup makers started listing the resistance as a comparison against stock pickups, to show that the replacements were "over wound" though if you wind two humbuckers both with the same number of turns, but use thinner wire on one, it will read higher but wont be any louder.