Winding with 42gauge heavy formvar questions.

[Folkcafe]

This weekend I tried my hand at making 4 tele pickups. I wound the first neck pickup till the bobbin would take no more (about 6.5k). The second neck pickup just under 6.2k to match the 3 pole pickup I made that I really like. I wound the bridge pickups similarly. I installed them in a Squier I picked up to use for testing. The problem is that there just isn't the level of articulation and detail with the tele pickups as I got with my experimental 3 string. My guess is that with only 3 poles I had to wind much fatter to get to just over 6k. My question is, what impedance range is the limit before I hit the wall with the high end using heavy formvar?

Ok, perhaps it was just dumb luck on the first 3 pole pickup but this is the sound I am looking to create with the telecaster I am building. So this week I plan on drawing and cutting larger flatwork for the neck pickup tops and will try to wind them fatter. The bridge flatwork should be large enough to take enough wire to match. Am I heading in the right direction? I really really like the combination of Alnico2 with heavy formvar with the small pickups I built and want to recreate the tone with the telecaster I am building.

Thanks for any and all help and insight.

Don

[David Schwab]

Don't worry about winding to a specific resistance. It's the number of turns that matter. The smaller coil will sound different because it is smaller. It takes more turns to get it to a certain resistance because each turn is shorter.

When you say it does not have the same level of articulation, what exactly does that mean? Missing high end? Wind less turns.

Also heavy build insulation will sound different from single build. I use 42H SPN for neck pickups, but I'm not crazy about it for bridge pickups. It has a "looser" tone than single build.

Expect to wind a half dozen pickups until you get what you want, unless you are following a formula for some known pickup.

[Possum]

....

Heavy formvar is just the wrong stuff to use for a tele neck. HF makes big fat coils, the fatter the coil is the further away the last windings are from the magnetic field, so you get a softer tone. You should use plain enamel 43 gauge which will give you a drier tone and small coil close in to the magnets. Some were wound with 42 gauge. For bridge 43 or 42 both work well.

[Folkcafe]

Lets see if I can't do a better job describing what I am hearing comparing both pickups.

Dave: To start with, output is a lot lower. I expected this and was one of the trade offs I was willing to accept as part of the design. With the 3 string there are more turns, just as you said, the winds are shorter. This is why I was looking for more turns for the tele bridge pickup. Am I wrong in my thinking?

Possum: I am less concerned about the neck for the time being. I can always order a small spool of 43 and give that a try and see if I can get closer to what I seek.

What I was after was a softer tone with less bite in the top end in the bridge position. The 3 string pickup gives me good highs and responds to even the slightest touch with great clarity but without sounding shrill. It is just way more responsive. I have just been thrilled with the results. On the Squire the highs are less pronounced but it is mostly the detail and responsiveness that is missing. Seems kind of lifeless. Maybe the difference in wood is part of it but is just way more than I was expecting. The tele I am building is the same as the 3 string. Ash body and maple neck. Perhaps I need to just finish putting it together. It is mostly done and ready to assemble anyway.

Don

[David Schwab]

There's two things going on... winding less turns will raise the resonant peak of the pickup which will make it smoother sounding. As you wind more the peak gets lower, which is usually in the upper mids/lower treble range, which makes the pickup sound brighter with more bite.

Alternately if you use single build 42 wire, or 43 you can wind a lot more turns, and get a darker tone.

My notes which I've collected from various sources, so I can't say how accurate they are, say the standard Tele bridge had 8,000 turns of 43 (8K) from 50-51, then went to 9200 turns (7.5K) of 42 PE from 51-64, and then to 7800 turns (6.4K) of 42.

I don't wind any Fender type pickups, but others here know a lot about them.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Are you handwinding? Over scattering will kill articulation in my experience...

Also remember that lots of squiers come from the factory with 500k pots regardless of whether they have single coils or humbuckers. You may want to consider rewiring the cavity if you haven't already. Teles with strat style hardware tend to sound a bit inarticulate to me too, but your set up should still be okay for pickup testing.

[David Schwab]

Teles with strat style hardware tend to sound a bit inarticulate to me too, but your set up should still be okay for pickup testing.

Where does he have Strat style hardware, and what would that even mean? The bridge? That's a Tele bridge. Or do you mean the six saddles instead of that stupid three saddle crap?

[Folkcafe]

I already gutted it and replaced the pots with 250k and put a 22uf orange drop. Essentially it is the same as the 3 pole pickup set up. I wound two of the 3 pole pickups. Both ended up sounding similar. The one I didn't use had fewer windings but both were real close (6.12k and 6.18k). I took reasonable care with all to keep the windings as consistant and even as possible. I do think the 3 pole ended up slightly taller as the magnets are flush on it.

I initially wasn't even thinking about making a telecaster until I finished the 3 string and just loved the sound of it. I spent a lot of time thinking about the design of the pickup for the 3 string. Somehow it just didn't translate into a 6 string tele pickup. So I am kind of back to the drawing board. The purpose of my question was to make sure I am going in the right direction with trying to get the same tone out of a longer 6 pole pickup. I think the next step is to just try to calculate how many winds the 3 string ended up. I purchased a red lion counter but have to design and build the mount for an optical sensor for the lathe rig. At that point I can get away from the wind, sand, measure, lacquer and continue winding until I reach a calculated impedance.

Reality check anyone? Where am I going wrong with my thinking?

[Steve Conner]

If you like the tone of the 3-string pickup so much, why don't you just make two and install them side by side to cover 6 strings?

[David Schwab]

If you like the tone of the 3-string pickup so much, why don't you just make two and install them side by side to cover 6 strings?

I thought of that, but they would have to either be wired in series or parallel, and that will alter the tone.

I think he just needs to experiment winding a few more Tele pickups. I'd get some regular build 42 AWG SPN instead of the heavy formvar.

[Folkcafe]

I don't even want to begin to have to think about parallel coils at this point. Besides, what would I learn from just using this one design? I still have so much to learn about single coils. As you say, I just need to wind some more and see where it takes me.

I just want to be careful with my limited resources. I've been out of work for a bit. This has been great for keeping my brain busy while I wait for my industry to rebound. Can't spend 24/7 on the job boards.

I really appreciate the help. Nice little community you guys have here. I'll do my best to contribute in small positive ways.

Don

[David Schwab]

Start with a known design. So try to replicate a standard tele pickup. If that comes out good, then try something else.. maybe thinner wire gauge. That will boost the mids. I used to just go by hunches... I'd pick a number of winds right out of thin air. And more often than not it would get me pretty close.

Then other times you find some changes cause counter-intuitive results. I've had quite a few head scratchers that ended up teaching me something... if not the actual cause, than another formula to stick in my notebook.

It's time consuming, but a lot of fun too.

Now I have to go and pour some epoxy into rubber molds.... not so much fun, especially when I have to fit a pickup in there and not hit the wall of the mold!

But it pays the bills... or some of them anyway.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Sorry, I was going from memory of his last post and didn't look at his picture. I thought the 3-string had barrel saddles and the 6 string individual saddles. There is nothing wrong with the individual saddles, but if you want it to sound like the barrel saddles...... won't happen. Apples and oranges? More like apples and canoes. Had I been paying attention, it might have been a valid point.

Are you using the same sort of pieces in the pickups? How about the baseplates?

[David Schwab]

There is nothing wrong with the individual saddles, but if you want it to sound like the barrel saddles...... won't happen. Apples and oranges? More like apples and canoes. Had I been paying attention, it might have been a valid point.

Everyone says that, but I don't hear it, except the barrels are usually brass, and the individual saddles aren't. I dislike brass bridges anyway.

Are you using the same sort of pieces in the pickups? How about the baseplates?

I make all the parts in my bass pickups, except for the covers. I don't use baseplates. These molded ones are OEM units I do for someone.

I'm starting to make some guitar pickups, and I don't use baseplate with those either.

[Folkcafe]

The magnets are the same in both (alnico 2) I tested the charge using a pull test method (another thread) to confirm everything is the same. Here you have stumbled upon one difference. The 3 pole pickup is not using a baseplate. The tele bridge pickup has a vintage steel baseplate from Mojotone. I could try it without the plate but would need to rig up some other way of mounting to the bridge.

I still have it in the back of my head that the number of winds is also a factor. The coil in the smaller pickup has more winds, hence is fatter at 6k than the tele one would be at 6k. Just something I didn't take into account as I was relying on impedance. The string spacing is wide on the 3 string pickup so it is more than half of what a tele would be. Perhaps if I do a rough ratio calculation between the two, I can come up with a reasonable base target and tweak from there. Hence my original question about how high can I go with heavy formvar and Alnico 2's before I hit the "wall"?

Without any additional input, it looks I'll find out on my own soon enough. Don't mind putting in the work, just hate wasting the copper. Also need to look at getting small rolls of 42 and 43PE. Stew-Mac is kind of pricey for half pound rolls.

Perhaps time to sell the Peavey Heritage VTX I just took in trade to raise the required funds. Maybe get enough for larger rolls of wire.

Right now I am working on modifying my lathe/turned winder so that I have a counter to wind with. I'm about to head into the shop to put some of the pieces together.