a talk with Steve from DiMarzio

[Possum]

Kevin....

I don't think Kevin is a DM "spy." If someone from a big company takes the time to talk one on one to someone in the public of course, its going to give a good feeling to whoever they are "sharing" their time with. But yeah this is P.R. stuff on DM's part but should be part of everyone's business ethic as a matter of course.

Take a step back, though, and do a search on "litigation" and "DiMarzio" and read what this company's true colors are all about. I suspect one CAN sell a bucker with two creme bobbins if the sale is private and not advertised. Meaning you don't need to put a picture up on your website, but if a customer says hey can you do double creme, of course you can and who is going to know? And, as Duncan DOES DO according to one other poster, you can ship the pickup with a loose cover and, hey who knows what color those bobbins might be inside? I don't do that many humbuckers but have never had a customer request "double creme." I suspect this idea is a bit outdated as being "cool" anymore. If I was Wolfe though it would be a big concern.

Go to court? If you have ever been involved in a lawsuit the guy with the most money wins, no matter what. DM can wear any of you guys down to a nub, they have the financial resources to do, and can drag a case out for years and years, this is how the legal system works, delay, obscurre, drag it out as long as possible until your adversary can't afford to fight it anymore. I've been involved in two lawsuits one against wife and myself and one against an apartment complex owned by a major corporation. Be prepared for sleepless nights if you tackle someone with clout.

I really don't think DiMarzio is worried about small pickup makers, not at the financial level they are at. No one here can run full page ads touting some product whore's "endorsement" of their fine products :-) None of those big guys are worried. If I were on the DM team I would be very worried about China and the fact that their product development seems to have completely stagnated for a long time. This is real curious, I mean they aren't really the geniuses of the pickup world, their patents are all about obvious things we've all thought of and use in some of our work, after all. Not like Willy Stich or even Harry DeArmond, who's work will be valued probably forever. So maybe they've run out of ideas? Also, I wouldn't be surprised that if not already happening, counterfeit DM pickups from China start showing up like everything else over there. That could be real bad. Andy C. told me a few years ago that big American companies were exporting to China stuff that was bascially stuff they couldn't get rid of over here, blemished guitars, stuff no one would buy here. I think thats probably going to backfire with probably better made counterfeits than the junk companies here dumped on their market.

All this stuff has come up over and over again here on the forum and for me , its one reason I'm going to stay SMALL. Wolfe is having alot of success, unfortunately when you start to become visible and successful in the music industry you also become a target. Lollar sure did on several counts. There is something to be said for being one eccentric weirdo guy making damn good pickups in the middle of the night :-)

[Spence]

Really not sure.

These guys don't give a toss what we're doing and I doubt very much they bother to watch this forum.

I do remember Seymour Duncan replying to a thread on the old forum. I suspect he had been alerted to some rather personal abuse and came on to defend himself. I don't think he was watching what we're all doing.
Incidentally, I have repaired quite a few Seth Lover models that have all been double cream. No secret.

DiMarzio has got no chance of taking the Chinese to court when they start churning out DiMarzio fakes. Like I've been saying, and Possum has confirmed, they are copying our stuff before flooding our markets with the stuff. Be sure we'll be buying it too.

[kevinT]

Kevin,

Your post is most informative, and I thank you for sharing this with us. I have a few questions for you, however.

What prompted you to contact DiMarzio for this information to begin with? Did DiMarzio want to actually make it known that they too watch this forum by presenting their side of the story through a "third party"?

I was prompted to contact DiMarzio because I wasn't clear about the trademark and was curious to know how they got it and how they were able to keep it when gibson was really the first to do the double creams. This orginated from a previous post a few weeks ago when the topic came up about the double creams. I contacted DiMarzio then but the contact person, who i later learn was Steve, was at NAMM. I also wanted to know whether anyone has challenged them on it and according to Steve, no one has except earlier in the 80s when SD did. I WANTED TO KNOW THE REAL STORY FROM THE HORSES MOUTH therefore I contacted them on my own initiative. I was tired of all the stories and wive tales floating around and wanted to know the real deal. In terms if DiMarzio, I don't know if the watch this forum or not, and I frankly don't care. I am in no way affilated with DiMarzio. In fact, they are my competitor. I am sure that DiMarzio has some great PR folks and if they wanted to get the word out about something they could without using a small timer like myself..

Are they concerned about losing market share to A LOT of smaller manufacturers? I think a common phrase or a good analogy (no action, real or imagined, towards anything or anyone is implied, intended, threatened or inferred, nor is the poster responsible for the misinterpretation of these words, following or previous, by any agent, heirs, assigns, attorneys in fact, individual or individuals, groups, villages, towns, municipalities, states, proprietorships, partnerships, companies, corporations (sub S or Class C), living or dead, defunct, bankrupt, electronic, virtual or otherwise. Further, the continued reading of the following phrase(s) by any individual or entity classified earlier hereby indemnifies the poster and the owner, operators, and administrators of this forum from any legal action or notification, damages, or loss of monies claimed as a result of this phrase or wording now, and for any future event -- (MA would be proud of me)) is a "death by a thousand cuts", where one small pickup manufacturer wouldn't cause any concern, but what about 100? 200? 300?

Perhaps they are concerned about how their company is regarded by the public and the pickup making community at large. Are you spearheading (or fronting) a public relations campaign to create a better perception of DiMarzio? Perhaps their recent experiences with personnel litigation and how it has been examined and cited as a legal example have left a lasting impression (or sensitivity) about how they are regarded by others. I will admit that this point is a stretch, but we shouldn't discount any possibilities.

I'm sure that they are concerned about losing market share from many competitors from many areas of the world. I would too if I was DiMarzio and never really had any threats to market share until recently. SD and DiMarzio pretty much monopolized the US pickup market for 30 years ...so I'm sure they are intimidated.

I only spoke to steve for about 15 to 20 minutes so i really couldn't go really deep into every topic with him nor capture every nuance. ...and of course, they are only going to tell me what they want to tell me...they don't know who i am so they not going to divulge everything they know about the industry. I was appreciative that he took the time had the courtesy to talk to me. He could have been a dick and hung up the phone


Or is it a not-so-subtle warning that DiMarzio is watching, and will strike back if provoked? I wonder what their concerns (if they have any at all) would be when the market is flooded with high quality pickup making parts?

No sir, no way. As I said, I am in no way affilated with DiMarzio. I think your making this post more complex than what it really is. I'm really not concerned about DiMarzio and how they are viewed by the public. I am too busy promoting my own company, GUITARFORCE, than to worry about DiMarzio.

In short, your post sounds like a carefully worded public relations statement intended to reveal the position and intentions of DiMarzio crafted by you with the company's approval.

No....sorry...you're way off base.

Again, you're making this more complex than what this post is really intended. I'm sharing info from a discussion I had that is all this is. There is no reason to be parinoid. But that is ok...It is a forum and a way to express and debate ideas and issues. I have nothing to hide. My name is kevin taylor and am the owner of GUITARFORCE, LLC. I sell guitar accessories including pickups. Check out my web site when you get a chance at www.cleanupyouraxe.com.

Or perhaps you yourself work for DiMarzio.

I have a full time job (not with DiMarzio) and operate my business on the side

Again, thank you for a most illuminating and thought provoking post. Well played.

You are allowed to think what you want to think....Like I said, there was a lot of stories and urban legends going around. I personally wanted to know the facts. therefore I contacted the source and I'm sharing the info with folks in this forum. Its not intended to be anymore than that.

I guess you can say the rest of us are watching them, too. Closely.

That is fine. You can believe what you want to believe... even if its wrong..its a free country. but I'm telling you....Dude, you totally got your manties in a twist. you're blowing this way out of proportion... DiMarzio is not taking over the world and I'm not their secret agent.

[JGundry]

The reason DM is pursuing violators is that if he does not the trademark protection goes away. The mere fact that he is not pursuing others for use of double cream in covered pickups means that there is no trademark protection for this application of double creme bobbins. The phrase "resembling a specific shade of cream" is too vague and would not hold up in court if another maker released pickups that had exposed bobbins that were called "vintage ivory" as long as you could prove that the color "vintage ivory" used a different PMS color number which would easily be done. My guess is the DM double cream color is not even a dead ringer for vintage double cream bobbins. The name "double cream" is the main trademark protected item. The color is easily worked around as there are now very precise parameters and calibrations for coloring plastic.

[Spence]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

In any case, the original PAF bobbins were whiter than white. They just changed color with age.

[David Schwab]

I was prompted to contact DiMarzio because I wasn't clear about the trademark and was curious to know how they got it and how they were able to keep it when gibson was really the first to do the double creams.

I've posted this a bunch of time on this subject, but I'm going to say it again...

I remember when DiMarzio pickups first came on the scene. At that time some people were starting to take the covers off their humbuckers. But all the guitars came with the covers on. This was back when Fender and Ric bases came with flatwounds standard too, and Fenders had the covers over the bridge and pickups.

DiMarzio pickups were instantly identifiable by the way they looked. Exposed double cream bobbins with allen screw poles. But even from across the statium, you could see the double cream bobbins, and you knew it was a DiMarzio Super Distortion Humbucker. So that was their look at the time, and they only came in that color, and it was advertising for them when their pickups where seen on TV or live at concerts. No other pickup looked like that.

Then the DualSound came out, and it was the same color. The HFS came out, and it was also cream. The Model P and Model J and Model G were only in cream. The PAF was cream.

The Super II was the first DiMarzio pickup not in cream. It only came in black. Then they started offering some others in black, like the P and J, and the PAF's came in zebra. But the SDHB (and DS) was only in cream.

So cream was their trademarked color, and they even sold matching cream binding, switch rings, and pickguards for Les Pauls. My guitar player at the time (who is my guitar player now) replaced the patent decal pickups in his Les Paul (which was originally a gold top with P-90's) with DiMarzio PAF's and got the matching cream parts from them.

That's how it was in the 70's. Things have changed, but they obviously don't want to abandon the trademark yet.

[Ruel]

Kevin,

Thank you for starting such an intresting thread. I don't believe you are fronting for DiMarzio or for anyone, no matter what others may imply or accuse you of, directly. Hope to read some more of the same stuff (not necessarily about DM) in this forum. Quite informative, really.

[Zhangliqun]

Of course, another reason DM doesn't go after Duncan on the covered double-creams is they know Duncan has enough money/firepower/legal talent to go toe-to-toe with them in court and would probably win.

[Plectrum]

Trademark – Steve stated that he knows that this trademark is very unpopular with folks especially pup makers.

I always found this a little unsettling. I'm not sure if Dimarzio know just how much damage this little "trivia" fact may have caused in *player* circles when it gets mentioned.
I know two guitarists who will literally not touch Dimarzio products because they perceive this trademark to be petty, ridiculous and unjust in view of it being so obviously "done before", muso's are a sensitive bunch - I know companies have to actively protect trademarks though.

[Matt T.]

I agree with plectrum's point. Word of mouth is very strong...especially in markets like electric guitars. There is a reason why so many people think DiMarzio p'ups suck and it has little to do with the quality of their p'ups. I know a lot more than 2 guitarists that won't touch a DiMarzio product just because of the double-cream BS. And of course, I'll mention it to any that aren't aware of it.

But I have a question about this: Would it be possible for small pickup makers to kind of 'string DiMarzio along' regarding a lawsuit? That is: DiMarzio threatens small p'up guy...small p'up guy says; "Bring it on" and then does absolutely nothing (i.e. doesn't spend a dime). Wouldn't this cause DiMarzio to spend lots of money trying to protect this trademark? And then right at the moment of truth (after DiMarzio has spent a lot of money), the small p'up guy says; "OK, I give up...you win." So the small p'up guy doesn't spend a dime but at least he forces DiMarzio to pay maximum price for their...shenanigans. Maybe if enough small p'up guys did this...?

[David Schwab]

But I have a question about this: Would it be possible for small pickup makers to kind of 'string DiMarzio along' regarding a lawsuit? That is: DiMarzio threatens small p'up guy...small p'up guy says; "Bring it on" and then does absolutely nothing (i.e. doesn't spend a dime). Wouldn't this cause DiMarzio to spend lots of money trying to protect this trademark? And then right at the moment of truth (after DiMarzio has spent a lot of money), the small p'up guy says; "OK, I give up...you win." So the small p'up guy doesn't spend a dime but at least he forces DiMarzio to pay maximum price for their...shenanigans. Maybe if enough small p'up guys did this...?

Before, or after you are called into court? How are they spending money? They have lawyers which I'm sure are retained for other reasons as well, and they have a budget for such things. You'd get contacted by their lawyers, who would tell you to stop. If you didn't they'd get an injunction against you, and you would have to go into court. At that point you would either have to pay money for a lawyer, or just represent yourself. At this point you would either have to say "OK you win" and probably pay their legal fees, or spend the money and take them to court and fight it. If you won, cool. You still spent money. They might even drag it out until you don't have any more money. If you lose, you have to stop making the pickups, and still pay their legal fees.

You really want to do all that?

The bottom line is they filed for a trademark that no one else was using, and one was awarded to them. At the time it was their trade dress, and no one was using it as their "look".

Trademarks can be stupid. Some drug company trademarked the name "Adrenalin." Now adrenaline is a hormone secreted by the adrenal glands, so how could they trade mark that? Because of that trade mark it's now commonly referred to as epinephrine. What's next? "Blood™"

[Plectrum]

Things appear to be a little heated on this (Cream bobbin) subject.
I have to add:
I do happen to like some of Dimarzio's products (ie. vp-90's, in the right guitar are pretty cool in my book...), I have nothing against them, and they've been *extremely* civil and helpful when I've required info from them.
Tradmark allocations - as David S states, can be perplexing and often favour the "Big(ger) Fish" and it's here that I sometimes have a problem. But fuelling the economy is paramount to govt. organizations, often to the cost of real innovation/innovators.
Also - in all honesty, the cream bobbin/hex pole units of old send me running.

[Matt T.]

I'm not saying "somebody should definitely do this"...it was a serious question...I don't understand all the details and was just asking. I'm still confused about:

...and you would have to go into court. At that point you would either have to pay money for a lawyer, or just represent yourself. At this point you would either have to say "OK you win" and probably pay their legal fees, or spend the money and take them to court and fight it. If you won, cool. You still spent money. They might even drag it out until you don't have any more money. If you lose, you have to stop making the pickups, and still pay their legal fees.

I don't understand why the small p'up guy has to pay DiMarzio's legal fees if they lose but DiMarzio doesn't have to pay his legal fees if they lose...which is what the above implies.

Also...if DiMarzio already has lawyers then what 'legal fees' are you paying?

[Ruel]

I'm not saying "somebody should definitely do this"...it was a serious question...I don't understand all the details and was just asking. I'm still confused about:

I don't understand why the small p'up guy has to pay DiMarzio's legal fees if they lose but DiMarzio doesn't have to pay his legal fees if they lose...which is what the above implies.

Also...if DiMarzio already has lawyers then what 'legal fees' are you paying?

You have to have yourself represented by a lawyer you have to pay. Or, you could go and represent yourself. In this case, if something goes wrong, you cannot claim a mistrial. Or the court could appoint a lawyer to represent you. Someone who doesn't give a hoot what happens to you. Anyway you look at it, you will have to cough up some dough.

[Possum]

the way it works....

Here's how this works in the real world. DM sends you a letter saying "cease and desist" marketing double creme or double ivory or whatever you're calling it, take this off your website and marketing materials, no pictures of double creme pickups. So you say screw you guys, or you don't respond. They file in court and you get a letter saying you MUST appear in a court in THEIR territory in New York state. Now you are required to travel to New York to appear in court to fight this. So you don't respond or tell them to screw off. The court judgement goes automatically against you because you have not contested the charges and not appeared or sent a lawyer to fight it. Now they have a judgement for monetary damages against you. You have by their view cost them money by selling a product that has lost business for them because you sold a product using their brand identity to customers. They can pretty much make up any figure they want. So say you've been selling these for a year, so they may say you have cost them $50,000 in lost business, and damaged their reputation in the amount of another $50,000. You didn't contest this in court so the judge awards damages and legal fees to DM. DM doesn't HAVE lawyers, they RETAIN a legal firm which costs them money every month, you also have to pay those fees and legal fees like that can be extremely ridiculous. So say you get a court document saying you now owe DM $150,000. You tell them to screw off and throw the document in the trash. The debt now goes to collection with DM's legal team behind the effort. You refuse to pay. Well suddenly you have a lien against your house and your car, you can't legally sell either one until the lien is paid off. The lien is a public document and now your credit is ruined. Some liens like this invalidate your mortgage loan and you can lose your house. It goes on and on, YES they can hurt you big time.......