2 P90 questions

[Bill M]

1- Does anyone know what years Gibson used the clear bobbins for P90's?

2- Did Gibson use the same winding machines to wind P90's and PAF's in the late 50's ?

[David Schwab]

I had a set of P-90's from an SG Special that had the clear bobbins. The guitar was probably a 1970 model.

[Bill M]

Thanks David, I was thinking the early 70's also. I was just wondering for how many years they used the clear bobbins and what period of time. I have a 1968 Es-330 I'm gonna pull a cover on and see if the bobbin is clear.

As for the P90's and paf's being wound on the same machines in the late 50's, I know late 50's p-90's were machine wound, that is clearly evident by the consistant tpl and pattern. I am just curious if they dedicated a specific machine for winding ONLY p90's. Maybe someone will chime in who has the answer.

[belwar]

in regards to the machine winding...

As far as I am aware, no they were not wound on the same machine. PAF's were wound on a Leesona 102 and possibly another homebrew winder, while late 1950's P-90's apear to be wound on a Geo Stevens machine. There is a photo in a gibson book showing the P-90 winder. It's been converted into a gang winder to wind 4 bobbins at a time. gundry knowns alot more about it as he has one of the machines.

[Bill M]

Thanks for the Info Belwar. Do you know what gibson book it was that had the picture of that winder?

[JGundry]

1- Does anyone know what years Gibson used the clear bobbins for P90's?

2- Did Gibson use the same winding machines to wind P90's and PAF's in the late 50's ?

1. Late 60's to early 70's? Not 100% sure on this.

2. The clear bobbin P-90 I have is not the the same TPL and IMO not wound on the same winding machine as the 50's P-90's. The 50's P-90 machine was also used for PAF's. Gibson used 4 different models and makes of winding machines for PAF's. Maybe more but I can confirm 4 and I am pretty sure there were no more than that. But you never know.

[Bill M]

Thanks Jon.

I know the clear top p90 doesn't have the same tpl as, lets say some of the late 50's p90's. I'm speculating that gibson wound their p90's on more than 1 machine in the late 50's because i've come across a couple different tpl's, 1 of which does match the clear tops tpl and wind pattern. That pickup was from late 59/60.

Duh! Now that I come to think of it the Leesona's were gibsons first commercial winders and definately would have wound p90's in the early and mid 50's, before paf's even existed. Probably after the paf came along the p-90's were put on the back burner and the paf's took over the big winders. ( Just a thought)

[JGundry]

I'm sure you are right about P-90's being made on more than 1 winder. All of the 50's P-90's I have unwound have been 56' and prior and all had the same TPL which was not a Leesona TPL. But you can't unwind them all! The conventional wisdom is the Leesona was the first commercial winder Gibson had but that may not be the case. The Stevens winder they had was a very old model also. It stacked 4 bobbins at a time. From a practical standpoint I think it would be easier for Gibson to swap the mounting fixture on the Stevens winder back and forth to PAF's/P-90's than it would be to switch the Leesona back and forth. So once the Leesona was set up for PAF's I bet it would have stayed that way for a good long while.

[Sweetfinger]

my late 60's ES 330 had black bobbins. I'll swear I've seen the clear bobbins through the 80's.

[Bill M]

I'm sure you are right about P-90's being made on more than 1 winder. All of the 50's P-90's I have unwound have been 56' and prior and all had the same TPL which was not a Leesona TPL. But you can't unwind them all! The conventional wisdom is the Leesona was the first commercial winder Gibson had but that may not be the case. The Stevens winder they had was a very old model also. It stacked 4 bobbins at a time. From a practical standpoint I think it would be easier for Gibson to swap the mounting fixture on the Stevens winder back and forth to PAF's/P-90's than it would be to switch the Leesona back and forth. So once the Leesona was set up for PAF's I bet it would have stayed that way for a good long while.

I'm not saying that they used the leesona to wind p-90's at the same time they were winding paf's. I'm saying prior to paf's existing. I'm sure once the leesona was set up for paf's it stayed that way. What I am saying is, before paf's, what did the leesona wind? The most widely used pickup by gibson at that time, just before the paf, was the p-90. I cann't believe that it didn't wind p-90's. Is there a date for the picture of the stevens winder with the stacked bobbins?

I'm not trying to discredit the leesona or anything, I'm just trying to understand the whole p-90 time line and manufacturing process. Plus, If they were made on the leesona, prior to the paf, thats just something else for your machines resume and thats a good thing IMHO. I, personally am a single coil guy, and am as passionate about it as you are about paf's.

[JGundry]

No offense taken Bill. I understand entirely your line of thinking. I would expect the the Leesona 102 was used for P-90's but I have just not seen a 50's P-90 with the Leesona TPL but they are probably out there if Gibson used the Leesona 102 before PAF's.

The caption for the Stevens machine says it is in the 50's nothing more. The machine itself is very old. Geo Stevens is one of those companies that has changed hands several times. But I called them and sent them a photo of the machine and the equivalent model from the 50's catalog they had on file was still newer than the one in the Gibson photo. They were not sure how old the one in the photos was but it is old. I asked them if they could make one from spare part off the shelf they called me back a day later and said yes but they had only enough parts to make one and only one machine for the bargain basement price of $8,900.00. I said yes and bought it. Then I found four of them a few months later for next to nothing. I bought those too. No more for me.

So did the Stevens winder or the Leesona come first? Who knows. Considering it is a bit of a pain to change the gear set in the Leesona 102 to change the TPL I doubt Gibson would have done it for different pickup models.

[Bill M]

That's a nice chunk of change for a new/old winder. I have an old stevens that I'm the process of overhauling. I paid $90.00 for it, so I cann't complain since it is a complete unit and does work. My main auto traversing winder is a Boesh winder from the 50's made in Danbury, CT. I have never seen another like it, all the change gears are built right into it. Just a slide of a lever will take me from 17 AWG, to 49 AWG, and every other gauge in between.I don't use it for the AWG numbers, i use it for the tpl within a given distance of travel. Also, it doesn't use a cam either, for the traverse, like many conventional winders of the time. Things built like an army tank, weighs as much as one, and works like a charm.

[JGundry]

Yes it is a crazy amount of money. When you can find them old winders usually go at fire sale prices. How old is your Stevens winder?

[ken]

I have two Stevens winders myself, the antique one I CNC'd that I don't use anymore and also a Model 120M from the early 1950's I'm presently restoring.

I'm missing parts myself, mostly change gears and a cam.

Do you have a photo of your winder?

Ken

[Bill M]

Jon, My winder is a 319AM. Not really certain when its from, but my guess, from the looks of it, it's from the 50's or maybe early 60's.