Flat bar pickup

[David Schwab]

Never built a pickup before...should have made that more clear, sorry.
I'm a bit confused...I'm not sure I understand correctly. (sorry for my annoyances :P )

It's not an annoyance, but I had that feeling. You need to learn the basics first, like how to construct a pickup.

So using the coil estimator i put in 11k for the output with 42 awg wire. It gave me 11557. would I wind one bobbin with this number and then wind the other bobbin to 9930 (43 awg).....I'm pretty sure this is wrong. What if I split each number....5779 on one bobbin and 4965 on the other....would this roughly equal 11k?

What you are missing is that the thinner the wire, the higher the resistance per foot.

So as an example, I can wind two coils, one with 42 and one with 43. If I did 5,000 turns on both, the coil wound with 42 would be about be 5K, and the coil with 43 will be about 7K. That's 12K, but each coil is not half of that. So you can't just divide the 11K in half.

Also, don't expect that they used the same number of turns on each bobbin! They probably didn't. Also.. we don't know what gauge wire is being used. Might be 43 & 44, etc. That's why taking a reading off a real pickup would help.

I just want to get myself all of the necessary info before I begin to build this.

I think you should pick up a Stew-Mac kit and try building that first. You need to learn the basics first. It's like trying to build a guitar and knowing nothing about wood working. You can do it, but you will reinvent the wheel several times over.

I just read the patents and they helped a lot. The 5mil patent also described using a type of base plate holder beneath the bobbin...which would you suggest the baseplate holder or the slugs?

Take a look how a typical humbucker is made.

I'm trying to get my hands on a crunchlab asap...Would measuring each coil cause me to dismantle the pickup?

No, you take a reading with an ohm meter on the two pairs of wires, the green and white is one coil, and the black and red is the other.

And how can I find the magnet strength and ceramic class...

It's probably a C8. You would need a gauss meter, but just getting a similar size magnet should be close enough.

I did a copy of an Air Norton based on an examination like this. I used the calculator, but I came out under spec. But it turned out sounding great, so I didn't care if it was an exact copy. I didn't bother to rewind it. That's probably as close as you will get... a similar sounding pickup.

Plus, have you even played this pickup? Are you sure you really want it? If you are trying to sound like John Petrucci, having the same pickup wont do it.

[Untitled_Project]

I did buy a stewmac kit before (never finished the pickup though), and I built my first guitar without any woodworking experience lol.....it turned out really nice

the most amount of winds that the estimator say can fit on a bobbin is 5100. If I max out the winds on the one bobbin 5140.8-it will roughly come out to 4k output....if i use 44 awg and wind 5983....in your opinion will this equal 11k? The estimator came up with the numbers.....

Its not a matter of sounding like john petrucci, my skill level is decades behind his. But I do trust his selection on pickups....On my first build, i outfitted it with an evolution(2 years later i started listening to vai) and paf....I love the combo....and the output on the evo is over 13k....

I have done a lot of research on which pickup to emulate and i liked petrucci's best...at least for this build.

[copperheadroads]

get winding is all i can say to you . that coil estimator will not always work out ,but it is a good tool as a guideline . as for those old PAF's 5000 turns would get you a 8k humbucker or 4k per bobbin they used plain enamel wire which is a little smaller than poly wire so if you are using poly wire you might come up short in the ohm"s that you are looking for . but that dont mean sh#T anyway if you got the turns on the bobbin of the wire that's all that counts

[Peter Naglitsch]

5000+ turns of AWG42 isn't that hard. Adn the blade bobbin I offered to you are a tad higher so IIRC I do a blade bobbin only/43 gauge wire pickup and take it up to 10K-ish. That means you might need to use a combo of 43 and 44 wire instead. I can sheck my notes later on to be more specific.

[David Schwab]

I did buy a stewmac kit before (never finished the pickup though), and I built my first guitar without any woodworking experience lol.....it turned out really nice

Finish the kit first and see if it works. Humbuckers can be fidgety to assemble.

And I didn't say you couldn't build a guitar with no wood working experience, I said you would reinvent the wheel. Did you make everything from scratch, or did you buy the neck, etc?

the most amount of winds that the estimator say can fit on a bobbin is 5100. If I max out the winds on the one bobbin 5140.8-it will roughly come out to 4k output....if i use 44 awg and wind 5983....in your opinion will this equal 11k? The estimator came up with the numbers.....

5000+ turns is the standard for a regular humbucker. The estimator isn't always exact. You need to wind and see.

Also which coil gets which wire? That's important.

Its not a matter of sounding like john petrucci, my skill level is decades behind his. But I do trust his selection on pickups....On my first build, i outfitted it with an evolution(2 years later i started listening to vai) and paf....I love the combo....and the output on the evo is over 13k....

I have done a lot of research on which pickup to emulate and i liked petrucci's best...at least for this build.

But.. that's the pickup that works well with his guitar/amp/tone. That's not a bad range for a pickup though. I don't like them much past 11K. They get too dark sounding when you play clean.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Checking my notes: A "normal" blade pickup with that blade bobbin ends upp with 6000-6500 turns of AWG43, resulting in a 10.5-11.0K DCR.

I browsed through my notes and saw that the highest turn count I have ever done wih AWG42 were 6300 + 6000 turns. DCR = 9.36K

[Untitled_Project]

The first guitar I built I bought a neck for. The second I made I built the neck, but I got halfway; I had to move and that neck and body and pickup kit was lost in the move.....terrible day.

I plan on winding 44 on the bobbin with the blade, and use the 42 with the other bobbin. the blade will be closest towards the bridge, with the higher output. Then then bobbin closest to the neck will have the lower output with 42.

I know what you mean by "dark" sounding with the higher output pickups on clean....I don't use my evolution with clean because of that. Still love the pickup but I use my paf when on clean mostly.

So what is the output per foot of the 42 and 44 wire anyways? You mentioned this before; could you elaborate?

[David Schwab]

I had to move and that neck and body and pickup kit was lost in the move.....terrible day.

Sorry to hear that. I lost some vintage Rickenbacker parts, as well as pickups and stuff in my last move.

I plan on winding 44 on the bobbin with the blade, and use the 42 with the other bobbin. the blade will be closest towards the bridge, with the higher output. Then then bobbin closest to the neck will have the lower output with 42.

I know what you mean by "dark" sounding with the higher output pickups on clean....I don't use my evolution with clean because of that. Still love the pickup but I use my paf when on clean mostly.

So what is the output per foot of the 42 and 44 wire anyways? You mentioned this before; could you elaborate?

Resistance does not equal output! Turns matters more. If you wind both coils with the same number of turns, they will have the same output, but will sound different.

The thinner the wire the more resistance per foot. But that has nothing to do with output.

[Untitled_Project]

Ok, sorry; enlighten me then.
I am getting very confused by your answers; you seem to be getting madder every time I pose an idea.....
Please explain the importance of resistance to me then....I said I was a newb at this stuff. You asked me a question (which coil gets which wire)and I answered;

"I plan on winding 44 on the bobbin with the blade, and use the 42 with the other bobbin. the blade will be closest towards the bridge, with the higher output. Then then bobbin closest to the neck will have the lower output with 42."

Sorry if I'm not up to your standard, I am trying; this is relatively new to me.

What do you think of my idea for what wire to use on which coil?

Also I understand that this artform has taken you a long time to reach the point where you are, and if you don't feel like divulging your findings---I'll understand, but please understand that I'm learning and I in no way am trying to pester you.

[LtKojak]

Ok, sorry; enlighten me then.
I am getting very confused by your answers; you seem to be getting madder every time I pose an idea.....
Please explain the importance of resistance to me then....I said I was a newb at this stuff. You asked me a question (which coil gets which wire)and I answered;

"I plan on winding 44 on the bobbin with the blade, and use the 42 with the other bobbin. the blade will be closest towards the bridge, with the higher output. Then then bobbin closest to the neck will have the lower output with 42."

Sorry if I'm not up to your standard, I am trying; this is relatively new to me.

What do you think of my idea for what wire to use on which coil?

Also I understand that this artform has taken you a long time to reach the point where you are, and if you don't feel like divulging your findings---I'll understand, but please understand that I'm learning and I in no way am trying to pester you.

Nobody's getting mad here, just relax!

P'up making is like cooking: you've got the ingredients, the recipes, but it's your ability in putting the right ingredients and elaborate'em in the right way and in the right order what it'll make or break the course (or p'up).

Like in cooking, read a good book before you attemp to make a dish. Once you've got the basis, you can ask the questions.

HTH,

[Untitled_Project]

So what book is there and where can I get it?

Sorry if my comment had been taken negatively. I wasn't trying to be a smart a$$ or anything. I do believe that Dave is a lot better than me in this field. My comment on not being up to his standard is my honest feeling and was not meant to be taken as a sarcastic comment.

I'm just feeling discouraged; I really need help in this and am learning a lot.

[David Schwab]

Ok, sorry; enlighten me then.
I am getting very confused by your answers; you seem to be getting madder every time I pose an idea.....
Please explain the importance of resistance to me then....I said I was a newb at this stuff. You asked me a question (which coil gets which wire)and I answered;

I'm not mad at all, I'm pointing out things and giving you things to think about.

See here you said:

"I plan on winding 44 on the bobbin with the blade, and use the 42 with the other bobbin. the blade will be closest towards the bridge, with the higher output. Then then bobbin closest to the neck will have the lower output with 42."

That's wrong. I pointed out that the coil with 44 will not have a higher output, and the coil with 42 wont have a lower output if they are wound with the same number of turns. But they will sound different. Generally the coil with 44 will be brighter and have more mids, and the coil with 42 will have more low end.

That's why I said resistance has nothing to do with output. That's a common misconception based on the fact that over would pickups generally use thinner wire and have much higher resistance readings. Sure, if you had very big bobbins and wound 7,000 turns of 42 it will read higher than a PAF, but not as high as 7,000 turns of 43 or 44, and yet they will have the same output, but the heavier wire will have low low end.

Sorry if I'm not up to your standard, I am trying; this is relatively new to me.

I'm trying to teach you something. As it stands now you wont be able to make this pickup. You need to learn a bit more. It's a deep subject.

It's not hard hard to get a working pickup, but it's harder to come up with something different. it takes a while to learn what changes have what effect on the tone.

What do you think of my idea for what wire to use on which coil?

Seems OK.

Also I understand that this artform has taken you a long time to reach the point where you are, and if you don't feel like divulging your findings---I'll understand, but please understand that I'm learning and I in no way am trying to pester you.

We divulge a lot of info here. We even take apart pickups and post the pictures! If I had the specs on that pickup I would tell them to you, but I don't.

Check this site out:

DGB Studio for Guitar Players &amp Builders

Look at the pickups link for some popular pickups. They show the calculated turns. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it will give you some ideas. For instance:

EVOLUTION DP159 bridge

Red/black - 6337 turns - 0.052 (wire gauge in mm)
White/Green - 6552 turns 0.059 - (wire gauge in mm)

[Untitled_Project]

I understand the coil estimator isn't exact but it can be close....

To clear up the qoute of mine you used; I used the coil estimator and using 42 awg and inputing 4090 as the resistance it came out to 5192 winds....then I inputted 6990 (the difference between 11030 and 4090) as the resistance and it came up with 5975 winds.

I used the wrong words before, sorry.

Now is this something that might come out to a total of 11.03k?

If not, then what would be a good way of splitting the winds between the two bobbins?

[copperheadroads]

well if you want 5.5k on a bobbin i would wind about 5700 turns of 43 gauge wire . but dont forget that is at about room tempature in this heat it will read 5.6 to 5.7 k or more

[big_teee]

I second David's motion, about buying the kit and wind something. That's what I did. I bought a couple of kits. I didn't have a counter or anything just a drill and some wire.
I rigged up away to mount the drill and a way to hold the bobbin, and started winding. I didn't have a way to count turns.
I left a wire tail soldered to the start lead and as the bobbin started getting full, I would lightly sand the 42 ga wire and measure it. I started with 4k dcr on each bobbin.
experimented with different magnets at different strengths. As I started making pickups, I answered most of my own questions. I didn't just wind one pickup.
I kept 2 pickups in process. One in the guitar and one on the winder. I would allways find something that I wanted to do different. If I were you I would start with 42 ga. wire.
It will be the easiest to work. If you are feeding by hand you are going to lots of trouble with the 44ga. breaking until you get the hang of it.
I like 42 ga. wire I can see it best. I like the sound of 42 ga P.E., I like winding 42 ga Heavy formvar it is more durable and more forgiving.
Good Luck,
Terry