potting and inductance

[CRU JONES]

Jim,

Describe an example transformer you would like to wind.

Would you want to wind more than one wire at a time?
What gauge wire?
what size/shape bobbin?
describe the interleave of input and output wind if they are wound independantly.

I think you could probably wind one with my winder as it is! I'd really like to try!
I'll shoot some pics tonite.
Cru

......
I like Terry's idea!

Rick is cool dude, Spence you are cool dude. Both of you have reputations of winding good ass pickups!

Sometimes I have to deal with disappointment when a guitarist realizes I wind with a machine. I want to wind with a machine! The design of the machine and programming it is how I am creative and have that sense of discovery. So I actually appreciate Rick coming out and saying he also winds with a machine. It is taboo.

Winding pickups is a beautiful thing. We construct of such simple materials, so many winds! Such beauty in the steel, copper, german silver, brass...Bee's wax! And the weight... in the hand. So solid, yet so delicate. As fine as a human hair. And so it also makes sense to use the hand! The love and anticipation as it spins...
Whatever.

O.K. Jim and I got to get to winding some trafo's! Right Jim?

Peace,
Cru

[David Schwab]

What makes hand winding better than machine winding, folks? As someone who has wound pickups for close to 40 years, I just don't believe it. I see and hear nothing inherently better in "hand wound" pickups.

And original PAFs...which seem to be the Holy Grail around here...were machine wound...

I detect the odor of sour grapes...

If you don't have an automatic bobbin winder, of course you're going to defend how you make your pickups. But that's an emotional response, not one based in logic.

We've been down this road before, with much the same outcome. Some people here hand wind because they like hand winding and think it adds something. Some hand wind because that's what they have to work with. The ones with machines use them. Some people, like me, want to have an automated machine, but don't. I try to be very consistent with hand winding these days and introduce as little scatter as possible. So far all the pickups of a certain design I wind sound the same.

Some of the hand vs. machine debates get quite heated. We don't need to go there again.

[J M Fahey]

Hi Cru, thanks for your kind offer.
Can I assume you will try and wind one in your machine, to see how it comes out? Good!!
I'll "convert " one of my designs from Metric (as in 0.006mm diameter wire, the thinnest I can find here) into AWG.
I'm sure you, being a pickup maker, already have far more types of wire than can possibly be needed here, the problem will be with miniature EI cores and bobbins.
Can you suggest some link to a supplier, so I can search their catalog online and refer you to specific parts?
Thanks in advance.
J M Fahey

[kevinT]

Some of the hand vs. machine debates get quite heated. We don't need to go there again.

David is spoiling all the fun.

We haven't had a knock-down, drag-out fight in quite some time regarding this topic. Aren't we due for one?

[David Schwab]

No!

[LtKojak]

No!

Party pooper!

[David Schwab]

Party pooper!

That's easy for you to say, but I get stuck cleaning up! And you guys never pick a designated driver.

[Possum]

I'm with Rick, you can do everything on an automated winder you can do by hand winding and more. I wouldn't recommend learning to wind by machine alone though, because then you don't understand anything about winding patterns unless you start out with crude methods. The big advantage of handwinding is that is creates long smooth frequency response without sharp peaks, but you can do this on a machine winder once you understand how hand guided winding works. I was forced into building my own CNC winder because I have big problems from repitative stress syndrome. Took me years to figure out how to do it stupid cheap and stupid simple. I can write infinite lines of code and change the speed and length of pass for each layer of wind; most of the commercial winders have very limited capabilities in that regard. I use my Adams Maxwell manual winder in conjunction with my homebrew traverse. My first worry when I built this was would my pickups start sounding really different? The answer was no, none of my recipes sounded different because I studied my hand winding techniques before I made the jump. My buckers and P90's improved radically by using vintage turn per layer recipes from studying the real patterns off vintage pickups. Instead of dissing machine winders you ought to try it for yourself so you'll know what they can do. I wouldn't really recommend buying an expensive automated industrial winder, they wind too perfectly and just freaking cost too damn much. Anything breaks on mine its max $35 to buy a replacement part from any Ebay dealer.

[Bill M]

Dave (possum), I couldn't agree with you more. I don't have a cnc winder, but I do have 3 vintage auto traverse winders now and they all do their own thing and have their own quirks. Also, I did not pay big money for these winders and I think they are good for about another 50 years of service with normal maintenance. When I first started doing vintage rewinds some years ago, local guitar techs and music stores used to bring me bags full of old blown pickups to rewind for them. Thats how I learned, I used to, and still do unwind any pickup that I am not familiar with to get TPL, turns count, etc. I quickly learned what was machine wound and what was hand wound by doing this. You're familiar with the difference in tone of a properly machine wound bucker VS. a hand wound one. The same goes for fender style single coils. Early/Mid 60's and on fender pups were machine wound and there are a lot of people hand winding them and they just don't sound the same as a proper machine wind.

[David Schwab]

if you have the skill, you can make any tool work. It could be a router or a chisel, and you will still get that pickup cavity cut.

I like routers. My buddy likes chisels.

I like the idea of loading a bobbin and pressing a button better than sitting there winding, even though I am good at it. It gets boring, even with my headphones and iPod. It borderlines on factory work! I'd just rather be doing something else... then I can multi task!

OK.. back to winding.

[Possum]

I wish it were as simple as pushing a button and walking away, it isn't. Thats why you see weird coil shapes on old PAF's, the operator wasn't paying attention. I still have to constantly monitor tension and make corrections if one side starts to build up off center. My traverse isn't linked to the winder motor, so I have to keep an eye on certain things, but I actually prefer the crudity of my setup. There are some cool vintage winders out there, too many of them though only wind one TPL unless you buy some other gears, so you have to be careful about buying one, as some parts are very hard to find.

[David Schwab]

Well I'm making the CNC setup, so they will be linked. Hopefully I wont have to babysit it once it is going. At the very least I wont burn my fingers.

[Joe Gwinn]

Well I'm making the CNC setup, so they will be linked. Hopefully I wont have to babysit it once it is going. At the very least I wont burn my fingers.

The danger is clear ... you are plotting to automate Possum.

[Possum]

Of course you'll have to babysit, no matter what you use. Look at the video of Gibson girls winding pickups, they have to sit there and watch the whole thing. A tiny fraction of a 1/1000th of an inch difference on end stops after a couple thousand winds you can end up with the coil all piled up on one end, you have to check your setup each coil you wind. You can't really automate tension because all tensioners drift, and most of them can't handle oblong coils. So you have to check tension during the wind. My traverse isn't linked and personally wouldn't want it to be, you make things too "perfect" and you end up with tones good enough to clone cheap offshore products ;-)

[David Schwab]

The danger is clear ... you are plotting to automate Possum.

Do I have to feed him too? Dave, what do you want to drink?