21st. Century Pickup Man

[Crumbhorn]

I am humbled by some of the things that I read on this forum, I know a good sound from a bad one, but some of you guys really know your shit - and Spence, I had a good look at your website and I appreciate the time, effort and experience that goes into what you do. No offence intended from previous posts - really, buy you a pint of Brains Bitter mate - assume it's the local brew.

I have been a guitar player for 30 years and an Engineer for as long (brought a tear to my eye).

I am used to working to micron tolerances.

Yet I have humbucker pole bars on my bench that have pitch erorrs that make them un-useable (until I waste a load of time milling the holes into slots), Pickup covers with holes out of pitch and holes that don't match with screw head diameters. No certificates of conformity from any supplier, and is anyone apart from StewMac aware that you can't/shouldn't sell to EU countries unless you comply with ROHS regulations? That means no lead solder, no chrome 6 passivation etc...

If the US Nuke Korea tommorrow, the replacement pickup industry has about 3 months to live. It might be a good blessing, because we may have control over what be buy from then on and not carry on licking up the dreggs of the major pickup makers - subject to some capital investment, but who from?

I am a Newbie with an interest in all of this surviving (But one who has been buggering around with guitars for years and has re-wound/Di-sected some very expensive pickups over the years - I ain't going to name names, but I'm sore over the money I've wasted buying them, bloody sore).

I have rewound a stack of GFS/Artec pickups and hats off to them if they have found a way of getting good sounds from sub 44 gauge wire (requisite number of turns, but less copper), but these bastards need to be taken out. I want young and upcoming, potential star guitar players to know what a good guitar sounds like - and entertain me with it when I'm 70 years old!.

The question that I am asking is that is there foundation for a common specification and sourcing arrangement here that will make everyone's life easier?

It all comes down to bulk buying power. I have quotes from a UK gasket manufacturer that trash web available costs for Forbon bobbin parts - tooling is cheap, circa £100 for Telecaster top and base tooling. I have a design on my CAD system for Nickel-Silver Humbucker frames that do 50mm and 52mm. in one frame - halve your stock!!. Haven't enquired about tooling yet, but it will be from Taiwan/China, so cheap.

Just tyring to whet appetites here.

Your thoughts??????

[Spence]

Ok, Crumbhorn, I've put my gun away. Brains will do nicely and I'll buy the next.

You know, you'll be most welcome here if you continue putting in the positive input.

It's worth getting into the needs of younger players because they're where it's at now. I deal with quite a few signed bands and they're all great young guys. However, it's amazaed me how many of them want to capture some vintage magic and they really know what they're talking about.

[NightWinder]

You know, this is something I have wanted for a while. I have personally not responded to, nor gave 2 flying fucks about what the other guy was doing. I always just pressed on. I just recently posted here after an invite maybe a year ago. I'd have to check. Point being, If we did have PROPER parts from crediable supplyers......To me... this is where the magic would start. It would blantently come down to HOW YOU WIND, and your formula. Again, assuming that we were all working with the same parts, and when I say same parts I mean Baseplates, covers, Solid shaft Bobbins. Screws and slugs are personal preference, but still contributed dearly to the system of the pickup. At that point, I would think I would come down to ones true ability. Definately would weed out the weak.....You guys know what I mean?
The young guys can surprize you......even having every dollar. LOL. Little shits.

[Possum]

devil's advocate again....

There's been alot of talk like this on the forum previously. The reality is when I ordered 10,000 screws no one here came through on a buy-in, not even for a measley 100 bucks. Pickup makers are musicians (well they damn well better BE, ha), musicians are unstable, ornery, opinionated, drink too much etc. etc. Getting any kind of organized effort out of musicians is like starting a band, most of the time it falls apart before it even starts. Graphic designers are the same way. There's been alot of talk from some saying they are going to get stuff made to sell to all of us blah blah blah and nothing ever happens.. Reality is that most forum members are hobbyists who buy 2lb. spools of wire and 6 magnets at a time or make pickups for guitars they build.

Trying to get "buying power" here isn't going to be easy, not one person here contacted me about going in for $200 to buy Formvar made by a small old American company no one knows about, just to get 10lbs. Nobody here buys 10lbs of wire at a time? Guess not. So all this stuff is pie in the sky from the years I've been on the forum, nothing has ever come out of it. Wolfe tried to get 3M to start making #4 black paper tape again while 3M watched the forum for responses, no one was even interested except me, needless to say 3M bailed on the idea. 3M gets pissy if you try to contact them about it again...

The only idea I can see working with such diverse interests, and even this idea probably would fall flat on its face, would be to get someone like StewMac interested in supplying better and more needs for the small pickup makers. They have a machine shop and factory, they have more money than all of us put together. I don't think there are enough of us here who buy stuff on a regular basis in enough quantity to interest them though. They told me they don't make much money on pickup parts to begin with. We would have to submit a standardized list of requests which will be tough since none of us use the same bucker parts or pole spacings. Quality would be an issue, how do you supervise a supplier to get one standard of quality for parts when they're not selling alot to begin with. Most of all they sell is imported anyway. The guy who owns GFS is the smart one, sell alot of low priced pickups for cheap that kids can afford and sell alot of them. I'd like to have Holmes type quality parts but no one is going to make and sell that type of stuff to a small market like we are as a third party.

What I'd really like to know is how Holmes got to where he had the capital to spend on custom killer shit parts with his name stamped in them and put out the massive quantity he does and keep up the high quality. Must be retired with a good ass pension eh?

[Spence]

Fiilister head screws off the shelf @ Micro fastners

formvar off the shelf @ Elektrisola in germany

3M promised to remake No.4 and backed down....incidentally, I did express my support to get it made on the old forum and pointed out that No.12, though beige is the same tape. Just dye it.

I am still advocating that we should show some support to Steven Kirsting who does provide an excellent parts supply.

Possum, you have PM(S)

[Mystic]

Fiilister head screws off the shelf @ Micro fastners

formvar off the shelf @ Elektrisola in germany

3M promised to remake No.4 and backed down....incidentally, I did express my support to get it made on the old forum and pointed out that No.12, though beige is the same tape. Just dye it.

I am still advocating that we should show some support to Steven Kirsting who does provide an excellent parts supply.

Possum, you have PM(S)

I just looked at Micro fasteners web site, And didn't find the right screws. Do they have stock that is not on the web site? Or am I looking in the wrong place?

[Spence]

You'll have to ring them. They do have them unless someone just cleared them out........

[David Schwab]

...and hats off to them if they have found a way of getting good sounds from sub 44 gauge wire (requisite number of turns, but less copper)

Gee, I don't know about that. There were a lot of pickups that used very thin wire, and sounded great too (like old DeArmonds).

And really if you wind more turns of wire on, even though it's thinner, it probably comes out as the same amount of copper in the end... but with higher resistance. More turns is more turns...

Having said that, Alembic makes nice sounding pickups with 36 gauge wire and far less turns... I'm happy with 42 G. It's all about the sound you are after.

[Crumbhorn]

Gee, I don't know about that. There were a lot of pickups that used very thin wire, and sounded great too (like old DeArmonds).

And really if you wind more turns of wire on, even though it's thinner, it probably comes out as the same amount of copper in the end... but with higher resistance. More turns is more turns...

Having said that, Alembic makes nice sounding pickups with 36 gauge wire and far less turns... I'm happy with 42 G. It's all about the sound you are after.

Take your point, thin wire doesn't=bad pickups.

I was thinking back to old Physics lectures where the principle was that the output (voltage) generated by a coil was proportional to the rate of cutting lines of magnetic force. So, same number of windings should give a similar output, but obviously the resistance increases with thinner wire. The pickups that I rewound were described as "PAF", but the construction was a mile apart from this.

[Possum]

formvar

yes of course Elektrisola has formvar, everyone buys it, its all anyone uses, I was rather astonished that no one was even slightly interested in getting some made by another source, all wire is not created equal. I sure wish someone else in this country was making PE, for instance but no one is so we are all stuck with REA wire which is just OK wire, not as good as alot of stuff we could get 3 years ago. So now we're all using the same damn wire made by one company, thats kinda scary to me. Maybe I have PMS but I get real tired of alot of talk and zero action with little regard to reality, "walk your talk" is something I believe in, otherwise its all just bar talk to me....

[WolfeMacleod]

There's been alot of talk like this on the forum previously. The reality is when I ordered 10,000 screws no one here came through on a buy-in, not even for a measley 100 bucks.
What I'd really like to know is how Holmes got to where he had the capital to spend on custom killer shit parts with his name stamped in them and put out the massive quantity he does and keep up the high quality.

Hmm...that sort of reminds me of the 25,000 piece order I recently made. WHich will be arriving Friday, by the way.

As for Tom, he makes all his own parts - and the tooling to produce them. He doesn't put out massive quantity at all, only a few a week, from what I've gathere through talking with him.

[Possum]

Holmes....

I've been told that he ships pickups in quantity to Japan, by someone who lives over there. Hang onto you screws :-)

[NightWinder]

Possum-There's been alot of talk like this on the forum previously. The reality is when I ordered 10,000 screws no one here came through on a buy-in, not even for a measley 100 bucks. I clearly told you I would have mo problem taking some off your hands when you get them.....Even pay premium price(more than what you were asking as to make sure they were right for me). Been over 4 months, possibly over 5, and I still have'nt heard a single peep from you other than the thread I posted over being pissed about the issue at hand (Come On!), finding out that you got your screws.....Like I said, I'll not nag you. Possum-There's been alot of talk from some saying they are going to get stuff made to sell to all of us blah blah blah and nothing ever happens.. A simple reply would have be cool from you......You of everyone here. Possum-Trying to get "buying power" here isn't going to be easy, not one person here contacted me about going in for $200 to buy Formvar made by a small old American company no one knows about, just to get 10lbs. Nobody here buys 10lbs of wire at a time? Guess not.......Thats exactly right, who buys from a small OLD American company noone has ever heard about? I have many times.....and It has always been less that standard-probably from the exact company!
The only idea I can see working with such diverse interests, and even this idea probably would fall flat on its face, would be to get someone like StewMac interested in supplying better and more needs for the small pickup makers. They have a machine shop and factory, they have more money than all of us put together. I don't think there are enough of us here who buy stuff on a regular basis in enough quantity to interest them though. They told me they don't make much money on pickup parts to begin with. We would have to submit a standardized list of requests which will be tough since none of us use the same bucker parts or pole spacings. Quality would be an issue, how do you supervise a supplier to get one standard of quality for parts when they're not selling alot to begin with. Most of all they sell is imported anyway. The guy who owns GFS is the smart one, sell alot of low priced pickups for cheap that kids can afford and sell alot of them. I'd like to have Holmes type quality parts but no one is going to make and sell that type of stuff to a small market like we are as a third party.-------This is a great Idea, but unfortunatly is near impossible

[NightWinder]

Possum-Maybe I have PMS but I get real tired of alot of talk and zero action with little regard to reality, "walk your talk" is something I believe in, otherwise its all just bar talk to me....Bar talk is good, everyone talks shit, its just not fun changing your rag on a bar shitter..........

[Possum]

missed point....

Unfortunately I needed $100 to even complete the order, so the balance of the screws went to a local luthier who's payment showed up on time next day.

I'm sorry but I do get awfully tired of alot of talk being thrown around about, I bumped into posts from 3 years ago last nite, promises of high quality parts, this and that blah blah, never happened, and still being repeated. I just turned 57 and at this point in my life I really place high value on a person's words, words without action have no value to me. If thats being grouchy so be it.