PRS on PAF

[RedHouse]

...I think the problem is people think PAFs are dark sounding....They make you go "meh" when you play them.

I think the problem is that "PAF" tone is all over the place depending on many things, the wood, the player, and the particular example under scrutiny at the time.

The PAF tone can be dark, or bright, or midrange honk'y, or any combination of these, which they, are as a group. We as a group keep falling into this PAF tone discussion as if it is one particular sound which I feel is the mistake.

[David Schwab]

I think the problem is that "PAF" tone is all over the place depending on many things, the wood, the player, and the particular example under scrutiny at the time.

The PAF tone can be dark, or bright, or midrange honk'y, or any combination of these, which they, are as a group. We as a group keep falling into this PAF tone discussion as if it is one particular sound which I feel is the mistake.

Right, which goers back to Rick's analogy about them being a bevy of women. We should just stop calling them PAFs, because that's like calling all women "Barbie". The problem arises when someone claims a particular version is a dead on accurate PAF copy. And all women look like Barbie.

[RedHouse]

Are you talking about in an amp or a guitar? They sound the same in a guitar. You might as well just stuff the $2 in the control cavity. Or send it to me!

I can sent ya $2 if you really need it, but in this case they actually don't David.

I have some paper-in-oil caps right here on my bench that sound totally different than a greenie. They were installed in a Les Paul and found to cause the guitart to take on a weird dull tone and one has a weird break-point (or knee?) in it's response where when you turn the tone control down it goes linearly to about 50% then drops abruptly into a full-on condition.

I have several (boxes) of NOS black beauty's and bumblebee caps here that sound nothing like a modern greenie (lets call them Mylar Film caps as that is what they are).
(most don't sound as good as modern day capacitors)

Sure all caps cause treble-cut in a guitar/bass circuit, but they don't do it in the same tonal way. Now don't get me wrong, I didn't say a $2 cap sounds better, I said you can tell the difference in these caps, and I was just being sarcastic about how so many will dismiss cap sound differences while embracing wire sound differences, that was my point.

[RedHouse]

...We should just stop calling them PAFs....

Dude how weird, I just typed that very same sentance/notion in my last post, then deleted it because I didn't want to upset the local PAF group.
(gee, I'm a sensitive guy)

I totally agree, the phrase/descriptive "PAF" should be referencing a particulay piece of vintage (Gibson) origin, ...not a sound.

[Joe Gwinn]

I have some paper-in-oil caps right here on my bench that sound totally different than a greenie. They were installed in a Les Paul and found to cause the guitar to take on a weird dull tone and one has a weird break-point (or knee?) in its response where when you turn the tone control down it goes linearly to about 50% then drops abruptly into a full-on condition.

I'd be suspicious of the tone control pot.

[RedHouse]

I'd be suspicious of the tone control pot.

Well that would be a good point, but since the greenies and modern poly's/Prop's don't exhibit the same behavor (using the same pot) I think we can dismiss that notion. Funny you'd asume I've missed the obvious though.

BTW, I don't use the NOS caps for inserting "vintageness" into guitars or amps in case anyone gets that idea, I use them only for restoration jobs where it's important to have original (or period correct) caps. I find no tone advantage using these NOS caps in my products, I only mentioned it because people like to keep saying there's no peceptable tone difference, which there is. But again I was just pointing out how so many winders will dismiss cap sound differences while embracing wire coating sound differences, again that was the point.

{Edit} the BTW wasn't directed at Joe

[martin manning]

Right, which goers back to Rick's analogy about them being a bevy of women. We should just stop calling them PAFs, because that's like calling all women "Barbie". The problem arises when someone claims a particular version is a dead on accurate PAF copy. And all women look like Barbie.

Even Barbies are not all the same. Early Barbie dolls were made of PVC, and many have now lost their original (skin) tone. Sorry... couldn't resist.

[Steve Conner]

Ah, cap sound vs. wire sound. There's one important difference.

Different wire coatings can have different thicknesses, and different dielectric constants. This is not really controlled for, so changing wire can result in a pickup with different self-capacitance, hence different self-resonant frequency and different tone.

Different capacitor dielectrics ditto, but this time the manufacturer does control for it, because the capacitor has to have the value that's printed on it, irrespective of what it's made from. Therefore, changing your tone capacitor to one of the same capacitance but different dielectric will not change your pickups' self-resonances.

Some really old "OMG NOS Vintage" capacitors may have completely different values to what they had when they were new, or be leaky, or have extremely high ESR, which could make them sound radically different to a modern capacitor of the same nameplate value. In the electronics industry these are known as "junk", as in: "I can't believe what that f***ing junk just sold for on Ebay!"

[Joe Gwinn]

Well that would be a good point, but since the greenies and modern poly's/Prop's don't exhibit the same behavor (using the same pot) I think we can dismiss that notion. Funny you'd asume I've missed the obvious though.

It isn't obvious to me how a capacitor could do such a thing, but a pot is another matter. Pots, especially carbon film pots, develop this kind of problem all the time.

[RedHouse]

It isn't obvious to me how a capacitor could do such a thing, but a pot is another matter. Pots, especially carbon film pots, develop this kind of problem all the time.

Sorry Joe, I meant obvious to check the pot as the variable.

[ken]

It isn't obvious to me how a capacitor could do such a thing, but a pot is another matter. Pots, especially carbon film pots, develop this kind of problem all the time.

I had this exact problem when I was proto errr... 'PAF's.

I was using a couple of Epi Lesters as test mules, and no matter what pickup I installed, I always got the same result... muddy tone. It was driving me crazy.

Finally, I changed out the coax lead wire for Gib style braided coax, and I was almost there. I changed the pots for Gib OE pots, and problem solved.

Why would a pot that tests within tolerance for DCR roll off too much treble compared to others with the same value?

ken

[David Schwab]

I had this exact problem when I was proto errr... 'PAF's.

I was using a couple of Epi Lesters as test mules, and no matter what pickup I installed, I always got the same result... muddy tone. It was driving me crazy.

Finally, I changed out the coax lead wire for Gib style braided coax, and I was almost there. I changed the pots for Gib OE pots, and problem solved.

Why would a pot that tests within tolerance for DCR roll off too much treble compared to others with the same value?

ken

It wouldn't. Did you test the pot though? How do you know it wasn't the wiring in general? All the electronics should be gutted in Epiphones, IMO. Possum mentioned this very same problem with his Epi.

[RedHouse]

...Possum mentioned this very same problem with his Epi.

Yeah, he was sure the wiring harness was the root of all his tone issues in his Epi.

Have we heard from him lately?

[David Schwab]

Yeah, he was sure the wiring harness was the root of all his tone issues in his Epi.

Have we heard from him lately?

I have. He's fine. He's in lurking mode.

Maybe if we leave him some milk and cookies he will come out.

[salvarsan]

How many angels can dance on a pinhead?

Yes, there are audible differences between different magnet wire dielectrics and copper purity. They are insignificant.

You must work with what you can get.

If you can't build a good pickup with the wire you have, get out of the business.

More pointedly, for a business that exists only in the service of music makers, these little pissing matches exemplify what is WORST about the forum: battles full of petty, narcissistic delusions over minor details. That doesn't pay the bills, though, does it?

It is unimportant that your pickup be a faithful replica of something whose exact provenance is questionable or unprovable, i.e., PAF.

What is important is that it sound good enough.

Where you set that bar is your business, but there's always been room for divergent interpretations. Ultimately, it is the marketplace that decides whose is better.