PAF authenticity question

[salvarsan]

We cracked open some PAF's that were bought used around 1985
and were purported to be authentic from the 1959-62 period.

They look equally worn and the coil tape seems equally brittle on both.
The PAF stickers on the frames seem of similar age.

The magnet wire visible through the bobbin holes are different colors,
one darker, brownish, translucent
the other more copper colored and transparent.

Our concern is that the brighter wire may be evidence of inauthenticity.

When did Gibson start using the transparent PE wire?
When did that kind of PE wire become available?

Below are micrographs taken under similar conditions, save for oblique lighting.
Despite obvious color balance differences, these images adequately represent
what I see under a jewelers loupe.

[lexluthier72]

As far as I know (someone correct me if Im wrong) but gibson started using the Poly wire (gold colored) in 64. Is it a PAF sticker, or a PAT NO# sticker on the bottom? If its a PAF sticker, this most likely means a rewind of one coil. I have a 63 SG PAT NO# sticker, and both coils are the "burgandy" colored wire, the bobbin top is smooth, with no embossed T. Hope this helps.
-Erin

p.s.- Another good way to tell, is if the covers had been previously removed. (non original solder joints) A likely sign that something has been altered.

[salvarsan]

As far as I know (someone correct me if Im wrong) but gibson started using the Poly wire (gold colored) in 64. Is it a PAF sticker, or a PAT NO# sticker on the bottom? If its a PAF sticker, this most likely means a rewind of one coil. I have a 63 SG PAT NO# sticker, and both coils are the "burgandy" colored wire, the bobbin top is smooth, with no embossed T. Hope this helps.
-Erin

p.s.- Another good way to tell, is if the covers had been previously removed. (non original solder joints) A likely sign that something has been altered.

My limited understanding is that there were no coordinated parts change-overs so much as concurrent using up of old parts while phasing in new parts.

The Poly wire change-over was complete by 1964 but started as early as 1962.
Both coil sets are double black without 'T' tops, roughly pre-1963?
Both magnets are long bars (2.5"), prior to July 1961.
Both frames have PAF stickers with wide clear margins and slightly rounded corners.
Coil tape looks undisturbed and equally brittle on both pickups.

The dates of all this suggest a 1962-1963 transitional coil for the bridge while all the other parts put it pre-07/1961. It could be a coil swap from a 63 onto an earlier frame, or could have been assembled from leftovers. It's too consistently old and undisturbed to have been a rewind.

Since the client refused to go forward without seeing the internals,
we accomodated him.

His limited assessment is that the bridge is a rewind.
My more considered assessment is that, if so, it was done at the factory,
perhaps to rework one that failed testing.

[big_teee]

I guess the coils are still good?
Can you share with us what the DCR is on both pickups?
Terry

[the great waldo]

I had a couple of late pafs in the other day and both had the slightly offset round indentation over the square hole. I´ll post the readings I took with an extech meter after i´m back from my xmas hols (that is if they manage to reopen Heathrow soon!!) both had the shorter magnets.
Merry xmas all

Andrew

[Corona Blue]

His limited assessment is that the bridge is a rewind.
My more considered assessment is that, if so, it was done at the factory,
perhaps to rework one that failed testing.

What is the DCR in each respective unit? Any notable difference between them? Are the magnets rough cast or polished?

[lexluthier72]

Salvarsan....you are most likely correct. I wasnt aware that the change started happening that early. It is most likely a factory rewind, if the tape looks equally brittle. I have not seen one yet that the coils are differing colored wire. It would be interesting to know what the DCR of the individual coils is....
Like I said, I have one PAT# sticker that is out of a 63 SG, and both coils are the same color dark brown/burgandy, and the bobbin tops are both smooth. I can confirm its the right year, because Im the one that removed it. =) Its matching bridge pickup was in fact a pat# sticker T-top....go figure.
-Erin

[salvarsan]

Magnets are rough on the large flats, ground smooth on the ends and sides, as they should be.

Electrical specs are:

NECK PICKUP
Rdc 7.43k @ 65F (estimated 5000 winds per coil)
4.675H @ 120Hz Rac: 7.612k
4.304H @ 1kHz Rac: 11.44k

BRIDGE PICKUP
Rdc 8.23k @ 65F (estimated 5500 winds per coil)
5.407H @ 120Hz Rac: 8.429k
4.923H @ 1kHz Rac: 13.27k

The neck pickup Rdc suggests it was Leesona-wound with a working turns counter,
while the bridge pickup was a timed wind (broken counter). The story goes
that the fully automatic winds were all 7.5kOhms; +/- .25k

Any sign of Jon Gundry or Spence?
This kind of thing is their meat & potatos.

[Corona Blue]

Which of the two has the darker wire? Neck or bridge?

[salvarsan]

Neck.

[Corona Blue]

I'm no PAF expert, but my best guess is that it's a failed wind that was re-wound at the factory. I'm sure they had fails on those machines every so often... throw the failed bobbins in a bucket and when the bucket got full enough, get a kid to cut the old wire off to salvage the bobbin. Who knows the time duration between the fail and the re-wind!!! A year? More??

Interesting stuff!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm not one of the archaeologists of this board, but I have read a few times that certain winding machines would do screw coils, others slugs. They'd be wound independently and joined later. Is it possible that some machines were loaded with one wire while other machines were loaded with another? Or perhaps the stock rotation was funny, and stuff was pulled off of the shelf in a strange way and the stock of wound bobbins got mixed up. I don't know if they ever actually sat that long, but these were just some thoughts that came to mind. I can't imagine with the QC at the level it would've been that they'd obsess over having the exact same wire on each bobbin for a given pickup. I don't think any of them would have even dreamed that a bunch of guys would be hanging out online obsessing over a thing and anyone who would've suggested this as a problem would have been laughed at.

On the pickup covers - checking for solder markings is a good idea, but honestly any tech with a good iron and a steady hand can resolder a humbucker cover and make it look original pretty easily. The only times one could tell it was non original on my own work is when I found the factory job to be too sloppy for my tastes and my solder joint ended up smaller.

[JGundry]

I recently had a PAF in for repair. I was the first to take the cover off. When I took it off the dead screw coil had the lighter copper colored wire and the slug coil had the darker colored wire you would expect to see on a PAF. It looked completely original in every way though. It was a PAF with a gold cover. When I unwound the dead coil with the lighter wire it was clearly machine wound by Gibson IMO. So was it dead pickup that was repaired at Gibson long ago, transitional? It seems plausible that Gibson would have a certain number of dead assembled pickups that might end up in a box that were repaired later. I had another uncovered Pat. sticker pickup come in with lighter colored wire one one bobbin that I expected was a likely rewind. The tape looked old so I expected it might have been stripped and the tape saved to preserve the look. But once I unwound it it was clear the tape job was untouched and very old and it also was machine wound by Gibson IMO. Having seen two of these, one of which I was the first to remove the cover from, I do think these are out there.

[David Schwab]

I can't imagine with the QC at the level it would've been that they'd obsess over having the exact same wire on each bobbin for a given pickup.

They didn't care if the pickups had one white and one black bobbin, so I'm sure they didn't care about the wire. What ever they got for a good price was probably what they used. These days winders obsess over what parts they used, but Gibson didn't. As long as the pickup was in spec as far as wire gauge and roughly 5,000 turns you were golden.

The minutiae was lost on them because they didn't think it mattered.

[salvarsan]

If you look at it from Gibson's viewpoint, it was only rock and roll.
Who cared what the pickup sounded like so long as it made sound?

For $125-200, any builder here can provide several flavors of old PAF with
better QC and better taste than Gibson ever thought to, yet scarcity and narcissistic
fetishism have elevated the price of old PAF's well beyond their actual value.
Thus you get $5000 offers for antique pickups.

Buyers can be stupid delusional bunch, so if they want distressed-looking
pickups alleged to be made to a magical PAF formula known only to
cognoscenti, using materials whose composition faithfully replicates 50 year
old technological defects, you give it to them and make them pay for the
privilege. That'll be $600, thank you.

Not too-oo-oo cynical, no, not me.

"A ____ and his _____ are soon ______."