Merry late christmas and a couple questions...

[John Carlsen]

Hey folks. I've been studying my brains out and poring over all the archive pages on the old forum, and I feel like I still have one BLARING question...what is the tonal difference between Poly coating, Plain enamel and formvar? I've searched and read so much, and I don't feel like I've been getting a conclusive answer anywhere. From what I understand, poly and plain enamel sound pretty similar, and formvar is a little darker sounding. Is this right?

Question #2: I keep reading about "medium build" wire, but they don't say anything like formvar, enamel, or poly. what does this mean?

Thanks in advance! You guys are awesome and I've learned so much already!

[big_teee]

Hey folks. I've been studying my brains out and poring over all the archive pages on the old forum, and I feel like I still have one BLARING question...what is the tonal difference between Poly coating, Plain enamel and formvar? I've searched and read so much, and I don't feel like I've been getting a conclusive answer anywhere. From what I understand, poly and plain enamel sound pretty similar, and formvar is a little darker sounding. Is this right?

Question #2: I keep reading about "medium build" wire, but they don't say anything like formvar, enamel, or poly. what does this mean?

Thanks in advance! You guys are awesome and I've learned so much already!

Don't know about the medium build.
Most wire comes in single double and triple build.
Plain Enamel and SPN are Single build.
Most common Double build is HPN and HFV.
I've not heard of an application in pickups that require Triple build.
There is more pickups made with the SPN than any other.
2 reasons, 1. is Cost. 2. its Single build and is great for humbuckers, and single coils alike.
It can be substituted for Plain Enamel, but will sound a bit different.
The next most common is the Heavy Formvar HFV.
It was used by fender for many years for single coils.
Have not tried the HPN, but would think it could be a substitute for HFV.
That Leaves the Plain Enamel PE.
It is a discontinued wire, and only used in making pickups.
It gives wonderful results in the right place.
The set-back on the Plain Enamel is the cost.
It is being made less and less which means Higher cost.
SPN can range from $17-$20 a pound. PE is $40 to $50 a pound.
As far as tone, that would depend on the pickup and application.
Good luck.
Terry

[David Schwab]

Hey folks. I've been studying my brains out and poring over all the archive pages on the old forum, and I feel like I still have one BLARING question...what is the tonal difference between Poly coating, Plain enamel and formvar?

I have no experience with PE, but recently I started using formvar, and it sounds the same as poly (SPN) in my pickups.

I've searched and read so much, and I don't feel like I've been getting a conclusive answer anywhere. From what I understand, poly and plain enamel sound pretty similar, and formvar is a little darker sounding. Is this right?

My understanding is that PE is darker sounding. But I don't use it.

I've never heard of medium build. I have single and heavy builds of both SPN and formvar.

[John Carlsen]

Ok, skso I guess this would be the million dollar question... if PE and SPN sound pretty much the same, then why do companies still use the PE when it's like three times mlre expensive? Is it just a marketing ploy?

[Steve Conner]

I sense a flame war coming on.

Some experienced pickup makers here will tell you that they sound very different. Putting my EE hat on, I'm with Dave, I can't see any scientific reason why they would sound different. The dielectric constants of the two materials are practically the same, so they should make coils with very similar self-resonant frequencies.

Maybe they have different insulation thicknesses that affect the turn count and/or capacitance, or maybe they lie differently when wound. But I'd hope that anyone doing a study would have controlled for these factors. Who knows.

[big_teee]

I sense a flame war coming on.

Some experienced pickup makers here will tell you that they sound very different. Putting my EE hat on, I'm with Dave, I can't see any scientific reason why they would sound different. The dielectric constants of the two materials are practically the same, so they should make coils with very similar self-resonant frequencies.

Maybe they have different insulation thicknesses that affect the turn count and/or capacitance, or maybe they lie differently when wound. But I'd hope that anyone doing a study would have controlled for these factors. Who knows.

I have both and they do sound different.
I think its more of the Ohms per foot thing.
The PE I have is a purer copper, and that means more wraps to read the same DCR.
The fatter you make the coil IMO the darker the sound.
I wish all the wire companies would standardize the Ohms per foot for the gauge of wire, I think that would take care of most of it.
No wars here, just opinions, and everyone has them.
Good Luck,
Terry

[Steve Conner]

OK, so you found a tonal difference with a real scientific basis.

But the original poster asked about tonal differences between different coatings. Not different grades of copper. So this is an uncontrolled variable messing up the experiment.

[big_teee]

It's real, and I can't control that.
Like I said the wire does seem to sound different, and that IMO is why.
There are very few PEs available.
Probably old formulas with different grades of wire.
My SPN is Essex and my PE is MWS.
I don't think Essex makes PE, so there you go.
Maybe Jon, Spence and some of the others can have a better explaination.
It's been debated here before about when you change rolls of wire it sounds difference.
IMO there are only 2 varibles with wire, O.D. and Ohms per foot.
If all wires were the same Out side Diameter, and same Ohms per foot, they should all sound pretty close, don't you agree?
However that doesn't seem to happen that often.
If you have great luck with one brand of SPN, chances are if you stay with the same brand, size, and type of wire the end result show be pretty close!
This is all strictly my Opinion.
Good Luck,
Terry

[Dave Kerr]

The PE I have is a purer copper, and that means more wraps to read the same DCR.

Hi Terry - are you sure the different resistance/foot isn't due to different wire thickness - maybe the diameter of the PE is toward the max range of spec, or the SPN toward the min? Do you hear any difference between PE and SPN if you wind to match the number of turns instead of matching resistance?

[big_teee]

You may be correct the wire may be a little larger.
I hand the batton to you professionals for debate.
I would think unless the O.D and Res. per foot, amount of turns, and same DCR per coil, all bets are off.
Good Luck,
Terry

[copperheadroads]

I have been experimenting with humbuckers using 42 PE vs 42 SPN . I do find the SPN brighter sounding than PE ,& SPN a little more compressed tone ..... both sound good
my MWS PE measures .0026" & my Essex poly measures .0027" & i do get very little increase in DCR with PE

[John Carlsen]

This has been great info. I suspected that this would be the case, i just wasn't sure. Insulation has no bearing on instrument cable, it's all about the quality of the copper and the connectors. So, then i guess a good reason to use PE would be to just stay true to a vintage reissue or something then? I noticed a slight difference between the Formvar and SP but i guess that's probably due to the fact that it's a thicker insulation. I'm just trying to get my theory and research up to snuff because i don't want to go out and spend a mint on PE if i dont have to. So basically, one could have a very marketable and high quality product with Poly right?

[copperheadroads]

When comparing SPN,PE, & HF the SPN can similar to PE but with some differences ,the heavy formvar has a smoother top end & a fatter sound
SPN is a great place to start

[big_teee]

If your going to start winding I would sure start with the cheap stuff.
That way if you peel it off a bobbin it doesn't hurt the pocket book so much.
There is usually lots of wire for sale in smaller rolls on ebay.
Have Fun!
Later,
Terry

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

It is hard to find substantial answers to your questions because it manifests itself so differently from pickup type to pickup type and from winding pattern to winding pattern. There really are no simple answers. I DO think there are dielectric differences between materials because I can't get SPN to sound like my PE pickups, though I must confess I am mixing brands of wire a bit. PE has a more hollow, woody tone in the end to my ears. SPN has a clear, chirpy top end that can only be tamed by keeping the tension low, and HF has a huge sound that for some reason reminds me of an old, very loose speaker. It is very clean sounding, but perhaps a bit flabby and uninteresting at times. SPN is great unless you have issues taming the top end. It can even be ideal if you're over winding and need to return some highs. HF is a lot of fun to work with, but doesn't seem to find much of a home these days.

That's my take on the designs I've been working on. There ya go - the results of lots of $$$ and time given to you for free!