Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[David Schwab]

Word from mouth is not acceptable, if you have some graphs available, please post them , I'm eager to see them and not be taxed as being "close minded".

Duncan doesn't have to prove anything. He designed a pickup using certain non standard materials. When you try new ideas you listen to see if you like the tone. You don't do models or tests, etc. Some of the forum members here had old PAF screws analyzed and had them duplicated. They didn't tell what they did either, but the screws do sound different. I know because I tried them. I'm sure the same is true of the slugs Duncan is using. Try a few different steels and see how they sound. The rest is in trade secret territory, so he neither has to prove or graph or document anything, unless he's seeking a patent. Sound is subjective, and not everything can be adequately modeled yet, because we do not fully understand how all the parts interact. Current models are too broad. Just take a look at some FEMM models for pickup magnets to see that they don't look accurate at all. Those models leave out eddy current loses, and different magnet and steel alloys, etc. I'm sure we would get there eventually.

Most of us here think it's cool that someone is trying something different, especially in this field where guitarist don't seem to like anything other than 50 year old designs. I'm sure if these pickups didn't use silver wire and nickel slugs they wouldn't be so expensive. I don't think Duncan is making expensive pickups just to be expensive.

Get off your high horse and give it a rest. I already gave you a warning, and people are complaining about your behavior.

That's why I don't believe word from mouth, please understand this simple and clear point of view.

Even if you heard the pickups, what you perceived is different from the next person. Everyone's ears and tastes are different. And seeing it on a graph wont mean diddlysquat either, just as listing DC resistance or inductance wont tell you what a pickup sounds like.

It's not the carrots that make the stew, but everything else included.

What he said.

[David Schwab]

As a maker of high end acoustic guitars that specifically caters to the corksniffeur crowd, im constantly amazed by what people are willing and WANTING to pay for. I cater to the "I want spruce harvested from the north slide of the mountain slope harvested by virgins only during a blue moon" crowd. I've built over a thousand guitars from Brazilian, and countless thousands of indian rosewood guitars. I tell people constantly that the indian rosewood is a better choice. It doesnt matter to them! No matter what I say, they want brazilian.

Well Brazilian is prettier to look at. But yeah, it's all because they heard it was better, and because it's rare now.

Same could be said for claims about nitro finishes on solid body guitars. It looks nice and is easy to buff out. That's about it. Doesn't stop Gibson from talking about the tone of the thin nitro finish on a 12 pound Les Paul.

On another subject, no one is suppose to sniff the cork. When a waiter opens a bottle of wine, he does so in front of you, so you can see it hasn't been opened already, and you examine the cork for damage or rot.

[Mike Sulzer]

Just take a look at some FEMM models for pickup magnets to see that they don't look accurate at all. Those models leave out eddy current loses, and different magnet and steel alloys, etc. I'm sure we would get there eventually.

How can you tell that they are not accurate?

FEMM is used to compute the dc field due to the magnet and pole pieces, etc. You get to choose the materials. This has nothing to do with eddy current losses, or can you explain that? It is true that you can carry this somewhat further under some circumstances to the ac performance, but what do you mean? How does that relate to what is being discussed here?

So on this forum one can only talk about very inefficient research methods because that it the way it is done by most forum members?

So on this forum it is OK to compare someone to a criminal or engage in other personal attacks, but it is not OK to engage in a serious, if somewhat rough, scientific debate?

Your priorities are screwed up.

[Xaar]

1) S. Conner : I was thinking the same thing for the inductance in Invaders: a stronger magnet ,ultra wide pole pieces and fairly overwound bobbin to raise inductance to eventually palliate the muddiness and cancellation. It's funny though because some people call it very muddy while others do a good job of pulling out loads of harmonics out of it while playing. Indeed there are too many factors at play to decide which theory will prevail, that's why I proposed as you did (but my post was deleted) that Sd and other pickup makers rely only on their own taste and tweaking while designing pickups.

2) Thanks M.Sulzer for the tip, I didn't hear about that software before! It wasn't for a whole pickup to model anyways, just to get an idea of the flux "graphic" behaviour coming out of a few odd shaped polepieces.

3) D.Schwab I am fully aware of the trial and error and random tweaks done "by ear" in the pu industry because of the inaccuracy of some models (never tried these models, but heard a lot about some issues and honestly, playing cannot be replaced by modelling in some cases).
You didn't understand -why- I asked F.Falbo for graphs. Not to prove why and how he tweaked according to his personal taste of course, it's personal.
Only because he swore me he supposedly AB'ed and apparently analyzed non zephyr pu vs trad Sd PUs: some cryo treated vs the same left untouched, the same test being also done for silver wond vs copper wound (for same gauge).
Usually tests imply listening , for appreciation of audible differences, musicality etc, but also as a record for future desisgns, well you know: a few graphs.

After all the dirty names and comparisons to a "nazi doctor" I've heard concerning me (it wasn't Frank but his "buddies" who should better leave him defend his point of view -alone- without worsening things and making it personal)... there's nothing wrong asking for a certain jsutification when it is said that there is an quantifiable amount of harmonics and speed occuring with silver + cryo.
Pleasing sounds are one thing, but claiming that listening tests + analysis have been done to prove a certain point and not showing any thing is kind of unusual.
Especially regarding all the reading I've done about it, and that takes time too you know.
and I never said that theory -always- prevailed. "human" testing + valid theory is the only way to go, not relying on a commercial's statements.
Why theory too? Because sometimes the desired sound could be due to factors which are NOT those the tseter had in mind while tweaking, thus the experiment must be repeated many times in diffeent configurations to verify his own personal claims, and eventually repeat the process with better understanding.
exactly like the CRC handbook suggested. Understanding the process. Not insulting those who want to understand.

Respectfully.
X.

[Xaar]

D.Schwab, I forgot, did you read the link I provided + quote that stipulated that a certain company found that pure silver through cryo was detrimental soundwise?

(personally I think it's as valid as the opposite claim...)

Now do you see why I find this ...most intriguing? Why do people in the same industry claim such divergent results? My personal conclusion is that it's more a commercial matter than taste or research, and that's what lit up the barn on the forum I guess.

When it comes to this, it's almost like discussing religion huh.

[David Schwab]

How can you tell that they are not accurate?

Because everyone I have seen shows the magnetic field extending too far above the pickup. Yes, magnetic fields extend to infinity, but not in a usable way.

And how do you set the steel type and magnet type in FEMM. I haven't seen it done. They are just crude 2D representations of magnets and are pretty much useless for pickup makers.

FEMM is used to compute the dc field due to the magnet and pole pieces, etc. You get to choose the materials. This has nothing to do with eddy current losses, or can you explain that? It is true that you can carry this somewhat further under some circumstances to the ac performance, but what do you mean? How does that relate to what is being discussed here?

My point is that people assume FEMM will "model a pickup." It doesn't. You know this, but I wasn't directing my comment to you. The things that affect the tone of a pickup, such as eddy currents, are not in the FEMM model. A more interesting way to see the field, in 3D, is to stick the pickup in a zip lock bag and cover it with steel filings.

So on this forum one can only talk about very inefficient research methods because that it the way it is done by most forum members?

FEMM is an "inefficient research method" when it comes to designing pickups. How has it ever been useful, or even used, in designing a pickup? And how will any "research method" tell you what you are hearing? It would take an awful long time to catalog what every parameter is in a pickup, and how that affects what you hear, and then when you change one aspect you change another. Sometimes just trying things is faster, and humans have an innate ability to figure things out just going by gut feelings. There was even a scientific study about hunches reported in New Scientist not long ago.

I'm all for a computerized working model of a pickup. But it's not there yet. We can't even agree on how to do a proper frequency response graph.

So on this forum it is OK to compare someone to a criminal or engage in other personal attacks, but it is not OK to engage in a serious, if somewhat rough, scientific debate?

Your priorities are screwed up.

Mike, as the Brits say, "don't get your knickers in a twist". My comments were directed to Xaar, who is implying that if Duncan made graphs, etc, that he would see the difference in this pickup and any other, and that it would prove all their claims. What you will see probably wont correlate into what you hear anyway. Did you ever look at complex audio waveforms on a computer? Unless it's a simple square vs. sine wave, you wont know what you are going to hear. You can even use software to draw the waveforms and listen to them, and they all pretty much sound the same.

I'll agree that the marketing for the pickup in question is a little over the top, and I have my doubts when it comes to silver being all that better as a conductor in this application, or how that would matter. But we wont know unless we try some, or hear these pickups. I have no plans on buying any teflon coated silver magnet wire any time soon. How about you?

But as I said early on in this thread, I wonder which matters more, the pole pieces, or the silver wire. I will also say that I wouldn't be surprised if the silver wire sounds different. We can say that it's difference in resistance is negligible, but small changes are audible in pickups.

Lots of things are discovered by accident or just trying something new. You wont find something new if you don't know what you are looking for. Then "science" comes in to try and figure out what's going on. But as BF Skinner said (and I paraphrase) a theory about a thing doesn't change the thing.

[Joe Gwinn]

It is important to understand what you can attribute to things like frequency response and impulse response and what you cannot. The same goes for group delay. Group delay is not really a useful engineering concept here because we are dealing with a second order filter and it also is determined by the filter characteristics.

While it's true that we often approximate pickups as second-order (RLC) systems of lumped-parameter components, real pickups are far more complex than that. For instance, eddy-current effects cannot be so modeled. And the winding is large and close to the magnets and string, so lumped-parameter models are not quite right either.

Nor is human hearing completely understood.

So I'd be cautious about claiming that people cannot hear this or that based solely on a second-order lumped-parameter model.

[David Schwab]

D.Schwab, I forgot, did you read the link I provided + quote that stipulated that a certain company found that pure silver through cryo was detrimental soundwise?

(personally I think it's as valid as the opposite claim...)

Now do you see why I find this ...most intriguing? Why do people in the same industry claim such divergent results? My personal conclusion is that it's more a commercial matter than taste or research, and that's what lit up the barn on the forum I guess.

When it comes to this, it's almost like discussing religion huh.

I could care less about silver wire or cryo. I don't use either one. But until you or someone else has one of these pickups to listen to, you are just being a debunker. I'm open minded enough to know that we don't know everything. I try enough things with pickups to be constantly surprised by the results. Sometimes I have no idea why it's doing what it does, but in practice it doesn't matter. I either use the effect to an advantage, or I don't because it wasn't something that sounded good.

If you actually spent some time in this forum getting to know people and reading posts, you will see how we feel about audiophile types. There are a few threads on the subject with links to really funny web sites with really funny clams. But even some of the anti audiophile claims are cherry picking their results, like the one that compared Monster cables to solid coat hangers. And they didn't even use the Monster cable speaker wires.

Frank was daring enough to come here and share info on this apparently controversial pickup. I think most of us had many questions, but they were mostly about why would you use silver wire, and what does it sound like. Until you hear it, you can't speculate on why it might be doing something. The slugs I can see. Just try a few alloys of steel and see how each sounds. I don't think anyone has use solid nickel slugs, so what do you compare it to? I don't think the bobbins add to the tone at all, but are probably vibration damping.

And it wasn't just Frank complaining about you. If you read the thread we all discussed the points you brought up. But we didn't do it in a confrontational "look I wanna be James Randi" way. You came in here with an agenda and wanting to be right and to pick a fight. That has nothing to do with pickup making. Have you designed and made any original pickups yourself? If you have, show the goods. If not, you don't have a foot to stand on. You can cite all the websites you want, but none of them had anything to do with pickup making.

[Mike Sulzer]

Because everyone I have seen shows the magnetic field extending too far above the pickup. Yes, magnetic fields extend to infinity, but not in a usable way.

And how do you set the steel type and magnet type in FEMM. I haven't seen it done. They are just crude 2D representations of magnets and are pretty much useless for pickup makers.



My point is that people assume FEMM will "model a pickup." It doesn't. You know this, but I wasn't directing my comment to you. The things that affect the tone of a pickup, such as eddy currents, are not in the FEMM model. A more interesting way to see the field, in 3D, is to stick the pickup in a zip lock bag and cover it with steel filings.



FEMM is an "inefficient research method" when it comes to designing pickups. How has it ever been useful, or even used, in designing a pickup? And how will any "research method" tell you what you are hearing?

Too far above the pickup? No, it shows the field decreasing at the correct rate. Measure it and see.

Setting steel and magnet type: You use the materials library. When people use FEMM, they usually report on the type of magnet and steel that they used.

2D? Well, yes rectangular 2 D is supported, as is a limited form of 3D, that is, cylindrical symmetry. Very useful for pole pieces that are rods, etc.

Of course FEMM is not used exclusively for designing a whole pickup. Who would?


Where the science comes in: It is an essential part of research if you wish to make significant progress. You need to understand what you are doing. But if steel filings in a plastic bag are a good method for you, I have no problem with that.

[Joe Gwinn]

FEMM

FEMM works quite well for its intended purpose. It will accurately plot the static magnetic field around and within any magnetic circuit that can be modeled as a 2D slice, under the assumption that the slice is through a system with either cylindrical symmetry (like a loudspeaker) or with infinite extent perpendicular to the 2D plane (like the middle of a blade pickup).

Modeling for instance a 6-magnet singlecoil will involve a judicious compromise, as the magnets are very close to one another, and so a singlecoil is neither a blade nor an isolated cylinder. (A non-blade humbucker has the same issue.) Probably the easiest workaround (to buying a commercial 3D file solver package) is to solve in both geometries, and threat the results as the bounding cases, with truth somewhere in the middle.

FEMM does handle eddy currents. A search on the term "eddy current" yields 25 hits in the FEMM documentation.

One can use FEMM to quantify the field nonlinearity by analyzing a series of configurations that differ only in the location of the string.


Finite Element Method Magnetics: HomePage

[salvarsan]

I'd be cautious about claiming that people cannot hear this or that based solely on a second-order lumped-parameter model.

How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from hijack into sarcasm, personal invective, irresponsible contrarianism and hand-waving arguments?

Sir, we take umbrage.

[Mike Sulzer]

While it's true that we often approximate pickups as second-order (RLC) systems of lumped-parameter components, real pickups are far more complex than that. For instance, eddy-current effects cannot be so modeled. And the winding is large and close to the magnets and string, so lumped-parameter models are not quite right either.

Nor is human hearing completely understood.

So I'd be cautious about claiming that people cannot hear this or that based solely on a second-order lumped-parameter model.

Yes, I agree, and one of the additional factors I pointed out in a nearby post was the dip in mid-range response in a humbucker due to eddy current loss. But I think it has yet to be demonstrated that the group delay of a pickup adds any additional useful information, that is, in addition to the frequency and phase response, for evaluating it. The effect of changing the frequency response on the sound is, on the other hand, very, very clear.

[David Schwab]

D.Schwab I am fully aware of the trial and error and random tweaks done "by ear" in the pu industry because of the inaccuracy of some models (never tried these models, but heard a lot about some issues and honestly, playing cannot be replaced by modelling in some cases).
You didn't understand -why- I asked F.Falbo for graphs. Not to prove why and how he tweaked according to his personal taste of course, it's personal.
Only because he swore me he supposedly AB'ed and apparently analyzed non zephyr pu vs trad Sd PUs: some cryo treated vs the same left untouched, the same test being also done for silver wond vs copper wound (for same gauge).
Usually tests imply listening , for appreciation of audible differences, musicality etc, but also as a record for future desisgns, well you know: a few graphs.

We discussed what the pickup would sound like with different wire, or with the silver wire wound on a standard PAF style pickup. I myself bright up those points early on. This is why I posted Salvarsan's comment: "It's not the carrots that make the stew, but everything else included."

We have to assume that Seymour and co. tried different combinations, and stuck with something they liked. I'm sure most of it was done in the spirit of discovery and trying something new. I think a lot of us would like to try new stuff, but we don't have the budget.

But Duncan doesn't have to document anything for the public. Neither does DiMarzio or Bill Lawrence. That's proprietary R&D. I don't even list technical details of my pickups like DC resistance on my website (except for one pickup). My reason is that this info is meaningless in ascertaining the tone of a pickup. That practice started when you had DiMarzio winding a hotter version of a standard pickup. Then you can sort of see it's wound hotter, while also not taking the higher resistance of the 44AWG wire into consideration. Same is true of magnet strength, etc. How does it correlate to the tone? It only does for that particular design.

You can also search for threads about cryo treating pickups here. I have no opinions on that at all. I haven't tried it. If I did, and I felt it made a difference, then I'd be curious why it made a difference. But just blindly speculating is pointless. And how would one go about figuring out what's going on? Sounds like a complicated endeavor. You would have to examine every little part before and after. If you found a change, how would that change alter the tone of the pickup?

[David Schwab]

Where the science comes in: It is an essential part of research if you wish to make significant progress. You need to understand what you are doing. But if steel filings in a plastic bag are a good method for you, I have no problem with that.

OK, define "significant progress" when it comes to pickups. I'd guess that means making a "better" pickup. So then define what a better pickup is.

I'm all for scientific method. But I do get bothered when some scientist think we understand everything around us, because we don't. We learn new things all the time. And that's a good thing. Even old discarded concepts like the aether are showing there might have been something to it with recent experiments.

Pickups aren't that hard though. For example I don't own a LCR meter. It would be handy to know the inductance of a pickup I'm working on, but it hasn't prevented me from making pickups I like. I do find my gauss meter very handy. But before I built that I used a "pull test" to compare pickups. After a dozen or so pickups you get a feel for what to change to get the tone you want.

[David Schwab]

1) S. Conner : I was thinking the same thing for the inductance in Invaders: a stronger magnet ,ultra wide pole pieces and fairly overwound bobbin to raise inductance to eventually palliate the muddiness and cancellation.

Higher inductance = mud.

It's funny though because some people call it very muddy while others do a good job of pulling out loads of harmonics out of it while playing. Indeed there are too many factors at play to decide which theory will prevail, that's why I proposed as you did (but my post was deleted) that Sd and other pickup makers rely only on their own taste and tweaking while designing pickups.

I also find invaders and JBs muddy, but only if you are trying to get a clean bright tone from them. You can't. Distorted they sound good though, but I prefer a brighter Mick Ronson type humbucker tone.

Every company starts with something they like, even Fender and Gibson. If people complain you make changes.

But people like those pickups, especially the JB. If people didn't buy them, Duncan wouldn't make them. I've installed enough of those kinds of pickups to see that they are very popular. So they must be listening to what players want.

But of course you start with something you like. Then you let people try it, and get feedback. Then you make changes. That's how I work. But I start with something I like and would use. How else are you going to do it?

2) Thanks M.Sulzer for the tip, I didn't hear about that software before! It wasn't for a whole pickup to model anyways, just to get an idea of the flux "graphic" behaviour coming out of a few odd shaped polepieces.

From our conversations here I can say that Mike doesn't feel that oddly shaped pole pieces matter, or that the flux is coming from the pole peices, and instead they merely magnetize the strings.