Originally posted by David Schwab
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Asymmetrical Humbuckers
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I've been doing offset bass humbuckers for a while in the hopes of gaining a bit of treble in series mode. My counts are 10% off on this most recent set and they're are quite noisy for my taste. The inside and outside coils do match so I get very quiet single coil pairs and both humbuckers together cancel fully. These are my hybrid A2-A5 coils and I've been putting the higher turns on the A2 coils to help them match the A5s in output. I think I'll go back to 5% offset. There's not much of a signal level difference between the A2s at 1200G and the A5s at 1600G (saturation). I think noise is more acceptable on a guitar than a bass.
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We should get past the "oh no, hum!!!" thing... I'm sure many of the winders on this forum own classic single coil loaded guitars and "accept" that they pick up noise as a concession to the tone they provide. I've also read a few posts here about how most hum cancelling methods seem to skew the tone of P90 type P'ups as well. So what if a mismatched dual coil pickup hums a little more? maybe it's OK as long as it "sounds" the way we want it to. Humbuckers aren't just about cancelling hum anymore, this style of pickup has become a higher output, warmer sounding and often more agressive option other than single coil P'ups. I don't even think most players consider the name sake when discussing humbuckers. It's become a moniker like "Cresent" wrench. Adjustable wrench is correct, Cresent is a brand. So why not just design pickups any way that sounds good? Of course we want to build quiet guitars. But you can still get pretty quiet with a pretty large mismatch. Especially when you consider that the inductance can be manipulated in other ways besides winds.
When I was young (16 or so) I wanted my guitar to sound more "open" with more bottom and top but still with higher output and less hum than a typical single coil. Even then I understood some of the concepts of how things work so I measured a couple of humbuckers I had on hand. Both had nearly symmetrical DCR on each coil but one was much higher than the other... So I took them apart and rejoined the mismatched halves together. They sounded great. I used them for many years all the way into my late twenties. They hummed a little more than symmetrical coil P'ups but I didn't mind. I still have them (though they're loaded in a guitar I'm not using). I think with todays innovations like the Suhr BPSCC we realize that we can still cancel hum without matching winds. This would be a good thing to experiment with. But, even if a design does hum a bit I think that's OK too as long as it sounds good.
JM2C"Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo
"Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas
"If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz
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Yep, in guitar at least, you choose humbuckers for the tone, and if they actually cancel hum that is a bonus.
Case in point, I removed the buckers from my favourite guitar and replaced them with some new ones. The old ones didn't hum at all, but I never much liked the way they sounded. The new ones hum a little but I much prefer the way they sound. If it were all about hum cancellation, I'd have returned them and put the old ones back.
In basses I guess hum cancelling is more important."Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"
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Originally posted by David King View PostI've been doing offset bass humbuckers for a while in the hopes of gaining a bit of treble in series mode. My counts are 10% off on this most recent set and they're are quite noisy for my taste.It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
http://coneyislandguitars.com
www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon
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Originally posted by Chuck H View PostWe should get past the "oh no, hum!!!" thing... I'm sure many of the winders on this forum own classic single coil loaded guitars and "accept" that they pick up noise as a concession to the tone they provide.
I test the bass pickups I make by moving them close to my CRT monitor.It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
http://coneyislandguitars.com
www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon
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There are (what seem to be) many great noise reduction systems around. I haven't tried any of them so I can't report on how any of them do or don't change the sound. I do know that most discriminating players don't seem to care for any of the "noiseless" pickups. The Suhr backplate system is said to be about the best but costs as much as a car payment. You probably know a good DIY solution... Care to share it??? Still, most pro's known for their "tone" don't use any noiseless system. Hmm..."Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo
"Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas
"If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz
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Originally posted by Chuck H View Post+++
There are (what seem to be) many great noise reduction systems around. I haven't tried any of them so I can't report on how any of them do or don't change the sound. I do know that most discriminating players don't seem to care for any of the "noiseless" pickups. The Suhr backplate system is said to be about the best but costs as much as a car payment. You probably know a good DIY solution... Care to share it??? Still, most pro's known for their "tone" don't use any noiseless system. Hmm...
The Musicians around here hate the noiseless stuff. They want the tone.
They don't even want the RWRP Middle Pickup. I usually talk them in to that though.
Terry"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
Terry
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Originally posted by big_teee View PostI've sold several Vintage type Strat Sets, to replace the fender Noiseless Pickups.
The Musicians around here hate the noiseless stuff. They want the tone.
They don't even want the RWRP Middle Pickup. I usually talk them in to that though.
Terry
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I ask after the noiseless systems (not so much the pickups) from the perspective of a sheer novice. I've never looked into them at all so I'm only able to theorize about how they work. With this base I'm inclined to think that they all detriment vintage tones to some degree. So if vintage tone is your only goal maybe noiseless is bad. I don't know. BUT, tone is subjective. If a noiseless system gives you the tone you want (and other obvious advantages, like being noiseless) then that's even better I suppose. I'd be interested in trying it which is why I asked after a DIY approach. I could certainly just wire up a dummy coil using an old pickup but that has to be pretty rough compared to the level you guys here at the pickup forum are at."Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo
"Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas
"If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz
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Originally posted by Chuck H View PostI do know that most discriminating players don't seem to care for any of the "noiseless" pickups.
If everyone ends up sounding the same, that's boring.It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
http://coneyislandguitars.com
www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon
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Originally posted by David Schwab View PostSure, if you compare a real single coil and a noise canceling "single" coil next to each other, they will sound somewhat different. But this is like saying there's only one guitar tone, and you must get that. The difference is probably that I don't care if my guitar sounds like a 50s Strat or something. I just want to get tones I like. Too many guitar players get hung up on trying to recreate the tones from the old recordings they grew up with, instead of finding their own sound.
If everyone ends up sounding the same, that's boring.
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I agree with Ward. There will always be single coils, as long as we have Passives, because they sound good.
You don't have to be following the crowd to like the old SCs of the 50-70s. Just ask Jimi & SRV, oh I forgot!
T"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
Terry
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Originally posted by David Schwab View PostI don't care if my guitar sounds like a 50s Strat or something. I just want to get tones I like. Too many guitar players get hung up on trying to recreate the tones from the old recordings they grew up with, instead of finding their own sound.
"If a noiseless system gives you the tone you want (and other obvious advantages, like being noiseless) then that's even better I suppose."
And I followed with:
"I'd be interested in trying it"
I don't mind if you quote me (and respond contrary) to make a point. Really. But I do not wish to be represented as a stodgy purist with a closed mind. At least I hope not to be percieved that way. My design work on amps certainly doesn't represent any purist ideology. For the record, my view is that if it sounds good, it IS good. There's enough cork sniffing in this arena. I drink beer.
That said...
I have played identical guitars (well, as identical as guitars get considering that they're made of wood), one with current P90's and the other with P100's... My conclusion is that P90's sound good and P100's don't. I'm not a purist. That's just the the sonic facts of it for me.
But I'm still open to other noisless options. Having only eliminated one is not reason enough for me to poo poo the whole idea."Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo
"Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas
"If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz
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