Can Anyone Identify this Single Coil Rail (bar) type PU?

[vintageguitars]

I was rummaging through one of my misc parts boxes from stuff I'd picked up decades ago at guitars swap meets, shows or hole-in-the-wall guitar stores, and I found this Bar style PU that is a Tele Bridge size. I can't for the life of me remember what it is, who made it,, or where I even bought it (or how much).

Can anyone fill me in on this PU and my questions above? Someone suggested that it might be the "Fat" single coil used on '59 - '60 Gibson Melody Maker's? Anyone got a picture of one of those to compare with it?

I can't figure out what that black plastic plate is for, except that it has scuff abrasions for the long bar magnet. Back plate? I also don't have a cover for it, assume it was solid topped and the shape of the pickup?

The pictures below are both side of this PU, which look the same.

[52 Bill]

I had a lap steel pickup from a Harmony guitar that was constructed with the same fiberboard bobbin and brass spacers. It was made by Gibson for Harmony.

The flat plate is a back plate, just like the ones used on Melody Makers. The two holes are threaded for the mounting screws. I had a 1960 MM and it had normal Mustang sized pickups. I've never seen any larger MM pickups.

[vintageguitars]

The "Fat" Melody Maker PU's are welknown to collectors ...

Interesting thought on the Lap Steel PU comparison .. will pursue that more. Though I have my doubts that Gibson (in Michigan) would make pickups for their hated rival Harmony (Chicago, Illinois) who was making good and inexpensive rival archtops and lap steels to Gibsons. I have a '48 Harmony "Broadway" archtop that looks, plays and sounds


Talked to another vintage collector back east (US) and he thinks the fiber bobbin looks more like Fender. So, I'm back to being torn between Gibson and Fender (or someone else) AGAIN!

As for the "Fat" Melody Maker pickup, they are actually quite well known among MM collectors. Gibson only used them on 59 and first half 1960 MMs, although they used that PU on other instruments before 1959. They were much more warm sounding than the later "skinny" single coil rail (bar) magnet PU's on 60+ MM's. And they are noticably bigger to the eye on MM's with them than the skinny PU models. To me, they sound like a slightly weaker P-90 and no harmonics problems that the later skinny ones had. That's why I was wondering if this one was that "Fat" MM PU, because of the copper filters on either side of the Alnico bar.

Here's some links on MM's with the Fat single coils PU's -

vintage single-cut melody maker price check - Les Paul Forum
1960 Melody Maker [Archive] - The Gear Page
one on eBay - 1959 VINTAGE GIBSON MELODY MAKER- OLD WOOD - BRAZILIAN - eBay (item 320672559761 end time Mar-24-11 12:27:32 PDT)

Compared with a "Late" 1960 with the "skinny" MM weaker pickup. Notice the difference in the thickness (width) of the two PU types. The "Fat" MM PU is as wide as a Fender Tele bridge PU.
My Les Paul Forums - View Single Post - 59-60 Melody Makers

[Sweetfinger]

Interesting thought on the Lap Steel PU comparison .. will pursue that more. Though I have my doubts that Gibson (in Michigan) would make pickups for their hated rival Harmony (Chicago, Illinois) who was making good and inexpensive rival archtops and lap steels to Gibsons. I have a '48 Harmony "Broadway" archtop that looks, plays and sounds

Doubt no longer. The entire harness, including pickups, was provided by Gibson for the Harmony H-62 and its variants, and the Harmony made Silvertone 1446.
Silvertone 1446 guitar - made by Harmony
I'm not sure if Gibson provided the entire harness for the other guitars using the non-adjustable polepiece variation of the P-13 pickup(predecessor to the P-90), but the pickup is a Gibson design.
I'm not so sure that Gibson "hated" Harmony. Do you have any source for this info? Gibson also made archtop bodies for Valco, also based in Chicago.
My off the cuff guess for your mystery pickup is the fat Melody Maker bridge pickup.

[jason lollar]

gibson did indeed make pickups for several other manufacturers. The bobbin on that is made just like a gibson P-13 bobbin- the brass inserts in the center, the thin forbon- black or grey was used and the plastic plate does look like a melody maker. i havent seen the large melody maker pickup but the later ones have an injection moulded bobbin, it would make sense that the earlier wide pickup MM was made like a P-13

[52 Bill]

Not being a MM collector, I'd never seen a fat MM pickup before. Thanks for the info.

The Harmony pickup that I remember had the same bobbin and brass inserts, but had a steel center section with pole piece screws and dual magnets just like a P-90. Is that what a P-13 is?

[jason lollar]

they made several variations of the P-13 - I dont know if they actually had different names but one of them does have a bar magnet for a pole- more commonly it has a steel core with 5-40 screws and dual bar magnets like a P-90 variant.

[Sweetfinger]

Not being a MM collector, I'd never seen a fat MM pickup before. Thanks for the info.

The Harmony pickup that I remember had the same bobbin and brass inserts, but had a steel center section with pole piece screws and dual magnets just like a P-90. Is that what a P-13 is?

Yes. The P-13 was an early Gibson design that showed up on the early ES-100 and a couple other models.

It was superseded by the P-90 and sometime after that it started showing up on Harmony models.
There is a non-polepiece version with a shorter cover that just stuffed the bar magnet in the bobbin where the keeper block and screws would be on the P-13. I have seen that version pictured in an old Gibson catalog as an "add on" pickup to electrify your acoustic.
I haven't seen any hard information regarding the business relationship between Gibson and Harmony, but those pickups and harnesses are Gibson and they are seen on guitars through the mid 60s, so there was certainly a working relationship there. I think it is likely that Harmony went to Gibson early on as a pickup source and then sought out Dearmond, who made the majority of pickups seen on Harmony guitars. Gibson, not wanting to sell their current pickups, probably offered up the earlier designs which were(to Gibson), obsolete, but which they still had all the tooling and dies for.

[vintageguitars]

Doubt no longer. The entire harness, including pickups, was provided by Gibson for the Harmony H-62 and its variants, and the Harmony made Silvertone 1446.
Silvertone 1446 guitar - made by Harmony
I'm not sure if Gibson provided the entire harness for the other guitars using the non-adjustable polepiece variation of the P-13 pickup(predecessor to the P-90), but the pickup is a Gibson design.
I'm not so sure that Gibson "hated" Harmony. Do you have any source for this info? Gibson also made archtop bodies for Valco, also based in Chicago.
My off the cuff guess for your mystery pickup is the fat Melody Maker bridge pickup.

I really have to say that is a big crock ... Harmony PU's (hence Silvertone or Airline brands) are anything BUT Gibson made pickups!

I have been collecting Airline (Montgomery Wards) and Silverton (Sears) guitars for 50 years (I'm 64, born and raised in Chicago - home of Harmony and Kay), and I've had more Harmony and Kay guitars then most 50 collectors put together. I've played them in bands, repaired them and restored then and consequently taken the pickups apart and ofter rewound them. They are NOT Gibson made PUs. Period.

I've known several CEO's at Harmony, even when Harmony was briefly out here in southern California about 15 years ago, though I haven't met the new guys with the latest iteration of Harmony in Barrington ILL.

Harmony or Kay pickups sound nothing like P-90's or Gibson "rail" bar type pickups. And I seriously doubt that Gibson would do a special run of "cheapy" sounding PU's for the much smaller production runs of Harmony electric guitars.

You show me an Official Gibson or Harmony document stating that Gibson was making, and when, pickups for Harmony, or anyone else, and I'll retract.

Until then you're just repeating hearsay and unfounded 3rd party stories. Proof talks, hearsay just walks.

You're going to tell us THESE are Gibson PU's?? Bwah ha ha ha ha ha..... I can't stop laughing.



Ps. the pickup I have been asking about, is indeed the well known "Fat" MM PU from 1958 - early 1960. Case closed. Thanks

[David King]

I look at this photo and see something ever so slightly Gibsonesque about that decal but what do I know?

[Sweetfinger]

I really have to say that is a big crock ... Harmony PU's (hence Silvertone or Airline brands) are anything BUT Gibson made pickups!

I have been collecting Airline (Montgomery Wards) and Silverton (Sears) guitars for 50 years (I'm 64, born and raised in Chicago - home of Harmony and Kay), and I've had more Harmony and Kay guitars then most 50 collectors put together. I've played them in bands, repaired them and restored then and consequently taken the pickups apart and ofter rewound them. They are NOT Gibson made PUs. Period.

I've known several CEO's at Harmony, even when Harmony was briefly out here in southern California about 15 years ago, though I haven't met the new guys with the latest iteration of Harmony in Barrington ILL.

Harmony or Kay pickups sound nothing like P-90's or Gibson "rail" bar type pickups. And I seriously doubt that Gibson would do a special run of "cheapy" sounding PU's for the much smaller production runs of Harmony electric guitars.

You show me an Official Gibson or Harmony document stating that Gibson was making, and when, pickups for Harmony, or anyone else, and I'll retract.

Until then you're just repeating hearsay and unfounded 3rd party stories. Proof talks, hearsay just walks.

You're going to tell us THESE are Gibson PU's?? Bwah ha ha ha ha ha..... I can't stop laughing.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]13265[/ATTACH]

That photo shows a Silvertone branded Rocket with Dearmond made pickups. That is not what we are talking about.
Tell me, have you seen an original Gibson ES-100/ES-125 circa 1940? Taken out the pickup and looked at it? Taken the pickup out of a Harmony H-62 and looked at it? They are identical. They also sound the same, and are different sounding than P-90's.
Look at the photo above posted by David King. That whole harness is absolutely without a doubt, Gibson made. You'll see them pop up on Ebay from time to time listed as 60s Gibson wiring harnesses. Ones I've seen have the covered potentiometer cannisters as well. That particular configuration of Mini-Humbucker is shown in Seth Lover's notes but does not show up on any Gibson or Epiphone branded guitar, just the Harmony made Silvertone 1446 "Chris Isaak" model. If you've ever seen inside a dead one, it uses the same bobbins, wire, and PATENT STICKER as the Gibson. Tell me, wise one, how would a Gibson patent numbered or PAF decal pickup end up being stock in a Harmony made guitar?

[jason lollar]

so you mean Kalamazoo, Mastertone and Recording King were not made by Gibson? Better let everyone know!
Whats a P-13 doing on this Gibson guitar???? http://www.well.com/~wellvis/steels/...bsonEH-125.JPG

Gibson must have been stupid back then to accidentally mount a harmony pickup on so many of thier guitars- see previous post.

[David King]

I vote honorary troll-hood for Vintageguitars.

[vintageguitars]

so you mean Kalamazoo, Mastertone and Recording King were not made by Gibson? Better let everyone know!
Whats a P-13 doing on this Gibson guitar???? http://www.well.com/~wellvis/steels/...bsonEH-125.JPG

Gibson must have been stupid back then to accidentally mount a harmony pickup on so many of thier guitars- see previous post.

"Kalamazoo, Mastertone and Recording King" are NOT Harmony, and NONE of you "vapor-ware" ex-spurts have quoted any FACTS supported by WRITTEN PROOF. Instead of being delusional, and Area-51, lets see something WRITTEN by a former Gibson employee that had to do with sales or pickup engineering.

Lets see a Harmony or Kay pickup marked "Gibson". Patent numbers, etc. Can't, can ya???

Otherwise all of you, especially Dave King, are the fantasy Trolls and can go back to your Grassy Knoll and Truth-er theories.

Instead: try this on for size, wiseguys: Harmony Rockets & Meteors

[Sweetfinger]

Lets see a Harmony or Kay pickup marked "Gibson". Patent numbers, etc. Can't, can ya???[/url]

Um.... have you been reading this thread? Why are you mentioning Kay? I'll just go ahead and second that Troll nomination. BTW, What's a Silvertone "Espanada" doing on the Meteor page you linked to? The Broadway harmony site is older, I think, but not as factual and comprehensive as the Demont.net site. Speaking to "why" there's no written proof: Nobody ever cared about Harmony enough to research and publish the information. SAVVY guitar nuts have known about this stuff for years just through observation.
Kudos to Dave King for finding those "Isaak" pickups with the PAF stickers. I always thought there would be some out there but all the ones I have personally seen were Pat# stickers like these:


I suspect that many of those "PAF" stickers may be currently adorning early 60s humbuckers masquerading as "genuine PAF".