Man vs. Machine Distributed Capacitance

[David Schwab]

The meaning of 'scatter' is to lay it down randomly, not to a set pattern.

Right, and at the same time you have created a very complex one off pattern. It was randomly crated, but is not loacked in as a physical object. It wont change after it wound. So in essence it is a pattern, just like throwing paint at a canvas would be. It was random, but now you can photograph it and copy it.

But as others have said, it doesn't seem to matter all that much, and my point before was that even though you are introducing a random factor in the coil, they don't all come out sounding different. So within a certain threshold, scatter is scatter. Too much, or too little does seem to matter though. So programing a wind that doesn't lay the wire right next to itself should sound like a hand scatter. You just have to figure out the offset.

Now I don't have a commercial automatic winder to try things out, so I can't comment on the validity of programing particular scatter tones, but I don't see why if you made a winder that guided the wire back and forth like you do with your hand, it wouldn't sound exactly the same as you hand winding it.

This is a great thread, and has me wanting to ditch the Schatten and make my own winder! I'm drawing out the plans...

Personally, I wonder if your machinewound pickups sound as good as your handwound pickups, were you getting any mojo from your handwinding to start with?????

How do we measure mojo? I think anyone who sets their intent on an action is imparting something. If you hear the tone in your head, and set that as your intent, will you get it? That has worked for me so far with instruments and pickups.

[Spence]

Bottom Line

I should, as a chairman of the Mentally Unstable Society of Handwinder's ( MUSH ), should take up the challenge to build a machine that will give me the ultimate, controlable, repeatable, and consistent handwound tone. I should do this just to prove that actually I'm not against the idea and that I'm not being a pig-headed die hard bastard. Possum and John feel they've cracked it with their own designs. I'm not sure I have the required amount of time to put in to such a project when I could be happily turning out awesome handwound pickups only to find it isn't working.
So the bottom line is that I am still sceptical that this works but the guys that have taken the plunge into this were at least prepared to dive into it head first whereas I would have to at least check the pool had water in it before taking the plunge so to speak.

[soundmasterg]

Mick, I think we're all making valid points here. I think we all agree that a machine wound pickup that has the wire layered on in nice and neat little rows is going to sound bad. I'd say if anyone does this with a hand wind, its not going to sound all that great either. The key is a scatterwind, and in my mind, not necessarily a random one either. With Jason's winders in his book, the wire is guided by the cams, and those make a regular pattern just like a computerized winder would, and pickups made with those type of machines sound great. Of course you also need an experienced winder who knows how to make a good sounding pickup, and how to tension it right to get the sound they are after, etc.

I can see what you're saying about machines, and the considerations one would have to make if they wanted to increase production, but I think that machines can be used to create a pickup every bit as good as if it is all done by hand. Maybe we disagree about that point, but thats life for both of us. I'm not jumping up just because some of these people who are using machines are my friends, I'm saying something about it because I disagree with you. Sure, when I start to wind, I'll learn more about it from a firsthand level, but don't you think that if I plan to wind myself in the future, that I've probably been paying close attention to the details and what works and what doesn't for some of these friends of mine over the years? Moreover, I watched Wolfe make all of these pickups for me on the different winders using the different methods, and while all the pickups sound different as all pickups will, they all have that same sound quality that is associated with a boutique pickup and they all sound great. Just by example I've seen what can be done with both methods, and I can see the advantages of the machine vs the hand wind too. I haven't decided which way I'll go when I get into this myself yet, but I'm leaning towards a machine like Wolfe's or Possum's that can do things on it's own, or allow me to hand wind and tension too. This way I can use either method depending on what I'm trying to achieve.

Spence, I've seen Possum's machine but am sworn to secrecy. I like it a lot and think its a great approach that has a lot of advantages, the biggest being cost, and time, since the machine will do some things by itself, it frees you up to do other stuff like paint your toenails with nail polish.

Greg

[Spence]

Greg, I have a spy in the Possum household and have seen his machine and his vast collection of vintage and rare nail varnishes and sandals. The machine does really work brilliantly and would make those guys who spent a fortune on commercial winders feel very, very, sick.
Understandably Possum is keeping this under wraps and I don't blame him because it's all his own work. I wouldn't give the secret away to just anyone either.
Meanwhile you can buy the Wylie Coyote Super CNC ACME winder for the price of an average family car.

[Joe Gwinn]

So is it random or specific?

This keeps getting interesting.

Is it possible to have a specific random pattern?...Seriously....because that is what it actually is if winding via controller... the ultimate goal of reaching a certain level of distributed capacitance. the example below is basic. i hope it conveys the point...(I'm not the mathicmatical/science type, so if i'm messing this up or making it more convoluted..forgive me)

Both winds have 9 spaces but they have different patterns. This is what I'm trying to get at...would the pickup sound differnt? I hope i'm not belaboring the point.

True Random/ Specific wind to recreate the end result of a random wound coil

III I I II I II = 9 capacitance / I I I I I I I I I I= 9 capacitance

Does it make sense? I think i'm confused now.

I think we need Joe Gwinn to break it down with a mathematical equation.

Summoned from the vasty deep I am.

The missing bit is the difference between random and its near cousin pseudorandom.

It's very difficult to achieve true mathematical randomness, although one can come pretty close. The classic definition of randomness is that past history is of no help in telling what future values will be - the core issue is unpredictability. This means that there are no patterns or regularities, on any scale.

The classic operational definition of randomness in sequences of numbers is based on the length of the computer program to generate the sequence: If there is no program shorter than the generated sequence, then the sequence is random.

Mathemeticians have many tests for randomness; these tests all look for various kinds of patterns where there should be none.

Human winders are not in fact very random, although most winding machines are even less random.

So, what is pseudorandom? It's a pattern or behaviour that although generated by some kind of rule (computer program much shorted than the sequence) nenetheless passes the relevant mathematical tests of randomness.

So, what are relevant tests? Basically, whatever works in the application at hand. Very few applications need anything like true randomness, which is in any event very hard to achieve, so what is used is a pseudorandom generator of known and predictable characteristics, those known to be suitable to the problem being solved.

Coming back to machine winders, they implement some kind of pseudorandom pattern. The question is what is and is not important in the characteristics of this pattern, as applied to pickups and their tonal qualities.

[soundmasterg]

Spence, I figured you might have seen Possum's setup already. its quite cool.

The only problem with the Wylie Coyote Super CNC ACME winder is that when it breaks, theres this mysterious "Beep Beep" that comes out of nowhere and you can't get it to go away!

[kevinT]

The machine does really work brilliantly and would make those guys who spent a fortune on commercial winders feel very, very, sick.

Meanwhile you can buy the Wylie Coyote Super CNC ACME winder for the price of an average family car.

[ATTACH]540[/ATTACH]

i agree...the price for these machines is friggin sick...outrageous for a glorified lathe with brains...

The good thing is that i was able to get a discount on the price by having them not install the DC motor. Instead, i'm powering up myself with my secret power supply. I have my wife's exercise bike hooked up to the winder's pulleys. When I need to wind a pickup, I tell the wife to get on the bike and start peddling. I use bon-bons for the reward and tie them up in front of her face. (...sort of like that Gilligan Island episode...where gilligan pedels to power one of the professor's contraptions) It's multi speed and it works great! The best thing is ...I keep the wife in shape and save on my electric bill at the same time.

[gilligan]

It's just some wire wrapped around some magnets

I love this place! I've been lurking, and winding, for around five years now. This great thread has reminded me... not long after I began winding, on my Lollar home built winder, I stopped by a local music store to see if he ever had any dead pickups that he might want to sell just to get rid of. He replied, "No, anyway it's just some wire wrapped around some magnets." I just said yes, I guess it is, and left. I figure he probably knows just about as much about guitars. After all, "It's just a piece of wood with strings on it".
Thanks for everthing guys. A wealth of information, and sometimes, lively debates.
Ron

[Sock Puppet]

[QUOTE=Joe Gwinn;18356]It's very difficult to achieve true mathematical randomness, although one can come pretty close. The classic definition of randomness is that past history is of no help in telling what future values will be - the core issue is unpredictability. This means that there are no patterns or regularities, on any scale.

The classic operational definition of randomness in sequences of numbers is based on the length of the computer program to generate the sequence: If there is no program shorter than the generated sequence, then the sequence is random. QUOTE]

While you're up from that vasty deep, where would irrational numbers fit in there?. E.g. PI could be calculated and a seemingly random sequence would then be available by picking an arbitrary point at say the 50 000th d.p. then taking the sequence of numbers you need in any direction - missing n numbers or the number of places indicated by the number read if you had a fancy to.

Just set me thinking that's all.

S.

[soundmasterg]

Guys....its not about whether hand wound or machine wound is better....Please that is a no win issue. Its TOTALLY about the tone...PERIOD.

I completely agree, but that is what people are arguing about...whether you can get equal tone from a hand wound or a machine wound pickup.

Mick seems convinced that you can only get the best tone from a hand wound pickup and won't listen to anyone else about it. His mind is made up. The thing is, he has only tried hand winding and never tried machine winding so his opinion is biased.

I've never tried winding myself personally, even though I know a lot of the details and have paid close attention to some really good winders and their practices and equipment, its not the same, so no one can take me seriously.

Possum and JGundry and Jason and Wolfe have tried both methods, and they're using the machines rather than going back to completely hand wound. With each of these machines, hand guiding and tensioning can still be accomplished if the operator desires, but apparently that isn't the same in Mick's eyes?

I mean you could actually do the whole thing by hand and take 5 hours to wind a Strat coil with your fingers, and end up with poor tension because the human body can't concentrate enough and for long enough to get even tension on a wind like that. You can use a drill motor and some felt in between your fingers and hand guide it on the bobbin. It may work ok....it may not. I used to know a local guy who wound pickups that way. I had him do some for me and they really sucked. You can go to the next step and build a home made winder like Lollar's, or something more elaborate with CNC control like Possum's or JGundry's or you can buy something like Wolfe's. If these still allow hand guiding and tensioning, then I don't see how that is much different than what Mick is doing if they are used that way. If the hand variable is taken out and it is used with the CNC control and it makes a good sounding pickup, then what is the problem with that? I've heard pickups done both ways by some of these people, and both types are in the same ballpark as each other. Its more about the operator and how experienced they are with winding coils, and the type of wire they use, the tensions they use, and if it is scatterwound or not IMO. But some people will never be convinced that the sky is blue......

Greg

[mick]

"Mick seems convinced that you can only get the best tone from a hand wound pickup and won't listen to anyone else about it. His mind is made up. The thing is, he has only tried hand winding and never tried machine winding so his opinion is biased."

I have already said that machine wounds "can" sound good , ....I just think that hand wounds sound better..if thats a biased opinion then good I am biased..

"I've never tried winding myself personally, even though I know a lot of the details and have paid close attention to some really good winders and their practices and equipment, its not the same, so no one can take me seriously".


Correct Greg , although my opinion is biased at least it's based on something I actually do , but like you said no one can take you seriously ...

Mick

[Joe Gwinn]

It's very difficult to achieve true mathematical randomness, although one can come pretty close. The classic definition of randomness is that past history is of no help in telling what future values will be - the core issue is unpredictability. This means that there are no patterns or regularities, on any scale.

The classic operational definition of randomness in sequences of numbers is based on the length of the computer program to generate the sequence: If there is no program shorter than the generated sequence, then the sequence is random.

While you're up from that vasty deep, where would irrational numbers fit in there?. E.g. PI could be calculated and a seemingly random sequence would then be available by picking an arbitrary point at say the 50 000th d.p. then taking the sequence of numbers you need in any direction - missing n numbers or the number of places indicated by the number read if you had a fancy to.

Nobody knows if the digits of irrational numbers like Pi are random, but it seems unlikely. Not that anyone has cracked the code.

What is an irrational number? One that cannot be expressed as the ratio of two perhaps large numbers. Common examples are Pi, e (the base of the natural logarithms), and the square root of two.

[soundmasterg]

Correct Greg , although my opinion is biased at least it's based on something I actually do , but like you said no one can take you seriously ...

Well I meant no one can take me seriously if I talk about actually winding something myself, but people can take me seriously when I talk about my experiences as a player with the two types of pickups and my impression of them as being in the same ballpark as one another. I have as good of an ear as most of you I would guess.

Another interesting thing I found out today when browsing through some old Vintage Guitars with interviews with Seymour. He suggests that molded bobbins like those used for P90's or Gibson humbuckers are best wound on a machine with traverse control to limit the amount of bobbin flair, so that echos what Possum and JGundry were saying that the PAF is going to work better as a machine wound pickup.

Greg

[mick]

"Another interesting thing I found out today when browsing through some old Vintage Guitars with interviews with Seymour. He suggests that molded bobbins like those used for P90's or Gibson humbuckers are best wound on a machine with traverse control to limit the amount of bobbin flair, so that echos what Possum and JGundry were saying that the PAF is going to work better as a machine wound pickup.

Greg "

So how come his ( duncs )bobbins are nearly always flared then? seems to me that it's not working for him.... mine aren't flared but then again I hand wind....?and would this be someone who machine winds commenting about the so called positives of it ? seems to me it's just another comment to justify a chosen direction . Maybe if you go along to his factory you could point out where he's going wrong with regards to bobbins flaring etc , being as you have seen and been told so much that you have such a good grasp of it .

Mick

[corduroyew]

...although my opinion is biased at least it's based on something I actually do...

Not really. You are biased saying that what you actually do is better than something you have never done. Thats like saying vanilla is better than chocolate when you have never tried chocolate.

I only wind by hand. I don't sell PAF style pickups because I don't think my hand wound PAF's sound like real PAF's. Perhaps I have something wrong in the recipe of materials, but I have always thought it was because I needed a machine to help control the windings.

I agree with whoever said “the wire doesn’t care if it’s machine wound or hand wound”. There is no mojo that makes pickups sound good just because you did it by hand. If you have a machine that makes an exact replica of a pickup that was hand wound then it would sound exactly the same. I know that I would never make a machine that could that, but if somebody else thinks they have created something that gets the hand wound sound, and if their customers think that the pickups have a hand wound sound, then who are we to say that they didn’t succeed?