Compressed sounding pickups

[LVS]

I recently made a pickup I wanted as flat as possible to fit under the strings without having to rout the body.

It's basically two thin pieces of hard plastic glued to the top and bottom of a ceramic bar humbucker magnet, with 5500 turns of 42awg around the magnet. <edit>It's not a humbucker magnet, but comparable to the ones glued to the underside of cheap strat pickups, to magnetize the iron pole pieces.</edit>

The top of the pickup is still rather close to the strings, but since it's mounted near the bridge, the strings don't rattle against it and it doesn't sound half bad.

But it's output is also very compressed. Wether that's a good or bad thing I'll just leave in the middle, but I've started wondering what does make a pickup sound compressed. A penny for your thoughts.

[big_teee]

So you have only a single coil wound around a ceramic magnet.
You probably wound up with a very bright single coil.
I think if you try again and try a A2 or A3 Magnet bar it would sound much warmer.
I made a lipstick pickup awhile back, wound around a ceramic bar and it was also very bright and compressed sounding.
I'm sure you will get a lot more ideas and Opinions.
Good Luck,
Terry

[copperheadroads]

Is it a full size humbucker magnet ? that would make a tall coil with only 5500 turns

[LVS]

You probably wound up with a very bright single coil.

Yes . Purpose was to make a match for the neck pickup (which is original - the guitar is a Framus Junior 6 from the seventies), having approximatily 4400 turns of 42awg around a ceramic bar magnet, thus internally resembling a lipstick.

So both pickups are quite bright individually. I'm okay with that (will try Alnico too as you suggest), and the plan is to get warmer sounds also by series combination.

I made a lipstick pickup awhile back, wound around a ceramic bar and it was also very bright and compressed sounding.

I was thinking the ceramic material is related to the compression, but since DiMarzio states their PAF has "that intangible swell", pickups with Alnico magnets appear to compress as well. (Maybe every magnetic pickup does it to a certain degree, from barely hearable to constricted and everything inbetween?)

Is it a full size humbucker magnet ? that would make a tall coil with only 5500 turns

The coil is wound around the flat side of a 10x5x60mm (0.4x0.2x2.4") magnet giving it a P90-ish footprint.

[Mike Sulzer]

The coil is wound around the flat side of a 10x5x60mm (0.4x0.2x2.4") magnet giving it a P90-ish footprint.

You mean the pickup is flat on the guitar? If so the magnetization is also parallel to the top of the guitar, not pointing up towards the strings as it should be. This would reduce the output.

[LVS]

Talking about lipstick pickups too might have caused some confusion - sorry about that. But yes, the pickup is flat on the guitar and magnetization is perpendicular to the top of the guitar, pointing up towards the strings. The magnet is comparable to the ones glued to the underside of cheap strat pickups, to magnetize the iron pole pieces.

[Mike Sulzer]

Talking about lipstick pickups too might have caused some confusion - sorry about that. But yes, the pickup is flat on the guitar and magnetization is perpendicular to the top of the guitar, pointing up towards the strings. The magnet is comparable to the ones glued to the underside of a cheap strat pickups, to magnetize the iron pole pieces.

So this is not a humbucker magnet, having neither the standard dimensions nor field orientation.

[LVS]

So this is not a humbucker magnet, having neither the standard dimensions nor field orientation.

Thanks, I see my mistake now : I gave a wrong description of the magnet in my original post.

Maybe I also drew too much focus upon this particular pickup I made - I was hoping to start a more general discussion about internal and external factors related to compressed output of guitar pickups.

[peskywinnets]

But it's output is also very compressed. Wether that's a good or bad thing I'll just leave in the middle, but I've started wondering what does make a pickup sound compressed. A penny for your thoughts.

If you mean 'compressed' as in its dynamic range is 'compressed', I would say this your eyes/ears/brain playing tricks....your eyes see a flat non-standard pickup, your brain registers this as being 'out the norm', so you then subconsicously start anticipating/hearing things that aren't really happening (like compression), because - & I look forward to being corrected - I can't see how a simple passive device could apply (dynamic range) compression.

Perhaps it's output is low, and this is muddying the waters?

[LVS]

I can't see how a simple passive device could apply (dynamic range) compression.

I agree with that but I think in this context, the word compression simply doesn't have the same meaning. I really don't think I'm imagining things btw. It's actually the first time I clearly hear what elsewhere on the web is often described as "my pickups sound constricted", or "my pickups sound compressed". I just thought, if that is the word commonly used to describe it, I'll use that word. It might be more appropriate to compare it to a slow gear stompbox (hence the "swell" DiMarzio mentions) than to a compressor.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Pickups that are very weak (comparatively speaking) tend to sound compressed to me. Also, if they are very OVER wound they'll compress and/or induce clipping further down the line of amplification.

I've found dynamics/envelope to be most influenced by form factor, specifically how the magnetic field is managed with the magnets and ferromagnetic materials. Magnets as slugs sound more percussive to me than steel slugs with magnets underneath. Ceramics sound sharper, etc. People better versed in the pedigree of alnico can specify how the different types behave. Blades have a whole different character... you get the idea.

Oh, and I understood your use of the word "compressed" to mean that it has a limited and dry sounding dynamic range, not that it is actually compressed... as peskywinnets pointed out, compression doesn't happen in passive devices... well, not really. I guess you could call some of the loading in the coil to be a type of compression, but I'll let Mike or Joe or one of those guys address that before I make a fool of myself.

[Ronsonic]

If you mean 'compressed' as in its dynamic range is 'compressed', I would say this your eyes/ears/brain playing tricks....your eyes see a flat non-standard pickup, your brain registers this as being 'out the norm', so you then subconsicously start anticipating/hearing things that aren't really happening (like compression), because - & I look forward to being corrected - I can't see how a simple passive device could apply (dynamic range) compression.

This is a good and thought provoking answer. The thoughts it provokes are examples of simple systems that do compress or limit. Not to argue with you but to try to find examples that might apply to this stuff.

Sola power conditioners are inductance based voltage limiters. A guitar pickup sure isn't saturated in the way that those things are, but I'm just spitballin' here. What is the curve of string excursion to pickup output. I'll bet that isn't entirely linear or is it. If it is nonlinear it won't be the same for all pickups.

Guitar strings themselves are non-linear. Hit them too hard and they aren't louder, they will get louder as they settle into the range of swing that is loudest. There is some of our "bloom" in that.

Using a close mic on a speaker certainly compresses. Because the mic only sees a small portion of the cone it is driven to maximum output quickly and beyond that limits. Does the same sort of thing happen with a magnetic pickup sensing a string in one spot.

The pickup to amp relationship won't be entirely linear if the amp is turned up or driven to the point of compressing and that happens before it reaches the point where we recognize it as being overdriven or distorting.

Just a few thoughts. I'll be happy for the folks here who know the subject better than me to shoot any of this down as silly.

[soundmasterg]

I'm not sure what causes pickups to be compressed or not, but the Rickenbacker Hi Gain pickups are quite compressed, especially the modern ones. They are like 14k with 44 gauge formvar and a ceramic magnet on the bottom of the coil. I like the older hi-gains more myself...they were like 9k - 10k and don't compress quite so much, though of course they are brighter sounding.

So maybe the ceramic magnet contributes to the compression since your pickup and the Ric hi-gains do also?

Greg

[LVS]

Before trying to explain a phenomenon, one has to describe the phenomenon itself. That already seems to be a small hurdle by itself to begin with.

- It's not there, and if it is, it's not the pickup
- It's there allright, and from what people's ears perceive they describe it as compression, constriction, swell, limited dynamic range

In the meantime I found this at Effects of Pickup Height | PeerlessTone.com

"As I believe (not everyone agrees with me though) that when a pickup is driven harder by moving it closer to the strings, it actually compresses the pickup's output a little, making your quieter sounds stand out more, and cutting down a little on the level of louder playing. This effectively compresses the signal into a smaller dynamic range. While a little compression can be a good thing, some players have reported that this makes string noise stand out too much for them with high gain settings."

So one might say that the distance to the strings is one (external) influence.

But what happens inside the pickup itself then (if anything at all)? I tend to think there is to some degree, core saturation happening at pick attack which temporarily changes the inductance. But that's no more than a wild guess.

[copperheadroads]

I wouldn't call it a phenomenon
I don't know how deep you are into winding pickups ,But it sounds like you wound your coil too tight ,
A overly tight coil can be very dull & lack dynamics