Ground the poles? Ground to cavity shielding?

[big_teee]

Grounding Technique IMO is important whereEver, to keep down Ground Loops.
Ground Loops Allows a Path for Noise and AC Hum.
It will work however you do it.
Normally on Proper Grounding you pick a single Point, and all grounds originate from there.
Terry

[RedHouse]

Grounding Technique IMO is important whereEver, to keep down Ground Loops.
Ground Loops Allows a Path for Noise and AC Hum.
It will work however you do it.
Normally on Proper Grounding you pick a single Point, and all grounds originate from there.
Terry

He'll argue with that too, just watch...

[David Schwab]

Now don't get yer knickers in a twist David, I'm not criticising it or you. What's "proper" and what "works" are two different aspects of a notion, that's all.

snip

Right, your talking about knickers, amps and cars.

But please explain how grounding the strings to the jack is different from grounding it to the back of a pot which is grounded to the jack. Not about a vague "proper" or "works," but the technical aspects of why one is better.

If the control cavity is an extension of the chassis ground, so is the back of the pots. And they should be first in line before the string ground since signals flow in the control cavity and not in the strings.

[David Schwab]

Grounding Technique IMO is important whereEver, to keep down Ground Loops. Ground Loops Allows a Path for Noise and AC Hum. It will work however you do it. Normally on Proper Grounding you pick a single Point, and all grounds originate from there.

This is true in an amp, where you might very different voltage potentials, but not in a guitar. There aren't any ground loops because there's only one ground. Hence no loops.

I have not seen anyone successfully create a ground loop in a guitar.

Now plug two pieces of AC powered gear into two separate power circuits, and then patch them together (like a PA and guitar amp), and you will likely hear the results of a ground loop.

[David Schwab]

Yes, it is what it is. I agree completely about the benefits of good workmanship, despite my poor technical skills. We are not all good at everything.

But it is natural to think that you are talking about functionality as well as workmanship because, well, you are. Right after your "extension" analogy, you mentioned the poor functionality of using a car chassis as a ground current return system, and so bringing up the differences in functionality between an amplifier chassis and a guitar does not seem off topic to me. In the former we have large chassis currents from the power transformer, as well as heater wires and wires with highly amplified signals that might get near wires with low level signals, etc. In a passive guitar, we have none of that. The first places more requirements on the grounding system than the second.

Gotta say I agree 100%.

[RedHouse]

This is true in an amp, where you might very different voltage potentials, but not in a guitar. There aren't any ground loops because there's only one ground. Hence no loops.

I have not seen anyone successfully create a ground loop in a guitar.

Now plug two pieces of AC powered gear into two separate power circuits, and then patch them together (like a PA and guitar amp), and you will likely hear the results of a ground loop.

Do you leave finish smears on your basses? no, of course not, that's not finishing the instrument properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

Do you build crooked necks? no of course not, that not done properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

Do you mount your pickups on your instruments crooked? poles mis-aligned, of course not, that's not done properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

All of a sudden, you can't see the difference? c'mon.

The same applies to wiring, or I should say, it matters to some of us out here anyway, all the talk means nothing when the implementation is crap ...IMHO.

Peace-out.

[David Schwab]

Do you leave finish smears on your basses? no, of course not, that's not finishing the instrument properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

Do you build crooked necks? no of course not, that not done properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

Do you mount your pickups on your instruments crooked? poles mis-aligned, of course not, that's not done properly.
(oh, but the instrument works, right?)

All of a sudden, you can't see the difference? c'mon.

The same applies to wiring, or I should say, it matters to some of us out here anyway, all the talk means nothing when the implementation is crap ...IMHO.

Peace-out.

Brad, tell me how the wiring will make any difference in the function? I say the correct way to do it is with a single ground wire to the jack. You say it's another way. My reasoning is often there isn't much room for extra wires on jacks, and the electrical circuit is identical. So one is not correct compared to the other. It's just your personal preference.

A crooked neck or pickup affect the way the bass works and is sloppily implemented. The finish thing is aesthetics.

None of that has anything to do with moving a ground wire a few inches to a different spot and saying that's correct. That's like saying red guitars don't sound good playing country music.

[RedHouse]

...I say the correct way to do it is with a single ground wire to the jack. You say it's another way...

....None of that has anything to do with moving a ground wire a few inches to a different spot and saying that's correct...

I'll need to review the thread again and see where I said that to you, but it seems to me that what I said (or tried to say) was the diagram shown wasn't exactly "proper" way to wire a control cavity as it says:



It shows daisy-chain, star, all pots have ground lugs, none of which is relevant in a shielded ctrl cavity, but I think what I said to you earlier was I would have moved the bridge ground wire to the same star as on the vol pot with and the others to.
(meaning loose the lugs and multiple ground points to the shield)

My references (US vs Asian wiring styles) went south, mentioned thinking of the ctrl cavity as part of the amp (since you said proper wiring belongs in an amp) but alas, that went awry too.

You can wire stuff any way you like, rock on.

[David Schwab]

I'll need to review the thread again and see where I said that to you...

You said:

In the pic, the bridge ground should be connected to the same spot as the other grounds, not off the daisy chain.

I said the daily chain is ground. Moving the wire a few inches wont change anything. I wouldn't wire things up like Bourns shows, but it's a good illustration for people who think you have to use star grounding or all hell will break lose! It wont, and if you read some people's forum posts, after they rewire their guitar or bass, which was working fine, to star grounding, they now have a lot of noise issues. I don't think the star caused that. It was probably the extra wire that resulted in less than ideal soldering and connections.

but it seems to me that what I said (or tried to say) was the diagram shown wasn't exactly "proper" way to wire a control cavity as it says:



It shows daisy-chain, star, all pots have ground lugs, none of which is relevant in a shielded ctrl cavity, but I think what I said to you earlier was I would have moved the bridge ground wire to the same star as on the vol pot with and the others to.
(meaning loose the lugs and multiple ground points to the shield)

My references (US vs Asian wiring styles) went south, mentioned thinking of the ctrl cavity as part of the amp (since you said proper wiring belongs in an amp) but alas, that went awry too.

You can wire stuff any way you like, rock on.

Well clearly you can't solder to the back of the Bourns sealed pots, so they have lugs, but the wiring is the same. The way I see it is the pot cans are part of the shielding, so they are sort of like the chassis on an amp. But the string grounds aren't part of the control cavity chassis. If there is control cavity shielding, that's part of the same enclosure.

The reason most people, including me, solder to he back of the pots is because they are a convenient place to solder wires. Often pickup shields as well as the grounded lug of the pot will solder to the back. That makes things a lot neater than having unnecessary wires. You could solder all to one pot can, but then you have a lot of wires going to one place, and that gets messy.

You can also not solder to to the pots and rely on them touching shielding, but if the pots get lose or the foil oxidizes, you might have an intermittent ground. But I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

I'm just saying that I run the bridge ground wire to either the back of a pot, or to the foil shielding because it's a convenient spot.

[RedHouse]

...The reason most people, including me, solder to he back of the pots is because they are a convenient place to solder wires. ...

I understand that, been around a while in this biz myself.

Anyway, your diagram says "Proper Grounding", so I "fixed" it for ya.



I also fixed a copy of the drawing to reflect proper wiring in a shielded control cavity:

[big_teee]

I understand that, been around a while in this biz myself.

Anyway, your diagram says "Proper Grounding", so I "fixed" it for ya.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15914[/ATTACH]

I also fixed a copy of the drawing to reflect proper wiring in a shielded control cavity:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15915[/ATTACH]

In a LP I go from Jk Ground to first, or nearest Pot which is usually Bridge Tone.
Then I go everywhere else like in your bottom Diagram.
Good Job.
Terry

[David Schwab]

I understand that, been around a while in this biz myself.

Anyway, your diagram says "Proper Grounding", so I "fixed" it for ya.

...

It's not my diagram.

And that's better how? Will there be an improvement in performance or reduction of noise?

Instead of continuing to say it's the right way to do it, give a technical answer as to what problem it solves. How is it better beyond your personal preference.

Anyway, I guess Bourns doesn't agree either.

[David Schwab]

Anyone who is playing more than 3 chords is showing off!

Guess it's true of someone who knows more than three words too, huh?

Even the national anthem has more than three chords.

People who only play simple and complain about those who don't, can't play.

[RedHouse]

...And that's better how?...

Never mind David, it's all good.

[David Schwab]

Never mind David, it's all good.

I think yours looks neater, but I don't think they function any differently. I wouldn't have wired it up like the Bourns chart either.