New Mojotone Butyrate humbucker bobbins. How accurate are they ?

[belwar]

So Possum, which of the two following stances are you saying you believe?

A) Once assembled, a pickup requires "X" ammount of time to break in to be at its full potential

or

B) A pickup requires a certain ammount of playing in an instrument before being at its full potential

[Possum]

70's P90's are great pickups, the ones with the clear bobbins. The aforementioned maker doesn't make PAF repros, its obvious to me what he is doing wrong. I am making PAF's, the same way they were made, only difference is materials technologies have changed for the "better." No way around that. You can swap my parts out in a real PAF and not really hear the difference, thats my specialty and how I worked to get what I wanted. Unfortunately you can't totally nail a vintage PAF coil, due to its age and quite different magnet wire made back then. But its not a horrible downfall either, I rewind PAF's for a high end vintage dealer in the UK and he likes my rewinds better than real PAF's, probably because modern wire gives you more clarity than the old stuff. He's had handwinders rewind them before and not liked them, I explained that they have to be machine wound after studying how the pattern was done.

Gauss changes I don't pay any notice to, its the tonal change from day one onwards I have to deal with, ignoring it is disaster, your results may differ ;-) If the gauss is changing its a possible sign of maybe something like magnetic soaking of the metals, the way around it would be to charge the pickup as a unit instead of sticking a magnet in alone. Another idea for an experiment in that.

I see what you are saying about tape wrapping around both bobbins, Holmes does that too. I will do it if the pickup isn't going to be covered, as an added protetion and will go around both bobbins twice. Gibson only put tape over one end with 2 wraps of the same size tape. If its not there its a possible sign of rewind or tampering with.

[Possum]

Belwar, I've had guys write me back six months later tell me they were still getting "better." I don't think that them just sitting around for six months is going to get them to stabilize though maybe the magnetic parts will get "soaked" by sitting around somewhat. I think there is something to do with coil settling, and quite possibly coil "burn-in" too, though that subject gets alot of debunkers pissed off ;-) From my own playing a brand new built set maybe 20-30 minutes every day or so, I don't hear changes after about 3 months. It gets complicated if you are listening as winter changes to summer and room temps change, warmer rooms make the pickups get darker. I did a video once comparing one of my pickups that I put real PAF parts and magnet into then replaced all of that with my parts, the second half of the video the weather turned real cold and the pickups got more edgy, plus I'd forgotten to match pole screw adjustments the same. Pole adjustment up or down will warm up or cool down the tone by itself. The worst day of listening is always day ONE, they will sound clogged up, dark and just not "there." Day two a dramatic change happens, they clear up alot. Customers have told me they can go back and forth over the first few weeks tho I've not experienced that myself and it rather freaked me out when one guy wrote saying they had suddenly gotten darker. I think what I'm making are more susceptible than what most are doing, but its real and I'm stuck with it.

[SKATTERBRANE]

It has been my experience, and the experience of my more astute customer that SKATTERBRANES "break in" too. I suspect all pickups do from the lowliest $50 Chinese pickups, to OTPG pickups.

I have also found that the more "transparent" the pickup, the more sensitive they are to subtle setup changes. For those who simply plob a set of boutique pickups in, and then expect them to perform at maximum without intergrating them into their system with proper setup, tweaking, amp adjustments, etc, may be in for a letdown.

Sometimes it takes me hours to adjust everything to my liking, and I find after ONE DAY, they change for the better, and they change a little less each subsequent day for quite some time.

I have had MANY customers come back to me months later surprised that they sound even better than the initial impression, as good as it already was.

[RedHouse]

Hmmm, seems to be sympomatic of those who make P.A.F. reproductions.

[SKATTERBRANE]

Maybe the cause and effect is being confused? Maybe the came cause that makes some winders interested in PAFs also results in their noticing some of the finer, more subtle aspects of pickups? I could be wrong.

But I find it hard to imagine people do not notice that after one day, their pickups tend to sound better than the first day. It is evident to my ears every time I install a new set. But if you do not notice it, then maybe either you have not paid attention to this, or the things I listen for are different than the things you listen for. We all have our own references, experiences and parameters.

I will not discount yours if you do not discount or minimize mine.

[SKATTERBRANE]

I get lost in this forum's format. It is not all linear like forums I tend to visit the most. It seems any given thread has subthreads going on that branch off from the main thread.

[SKATTERBRANE]

Throbak and Stephen's Designs and some others, have taken the bottom up, anaylitical, scientific approach to making pickups and to a great success. Their concept is if you replicate all the materials and whatever manufacturing proceeses you can, you cannot help but arrive at the same results Gibson did in the 1950's.

I can appreciate that.

But there is more than one way to skin a cat. Others, have taken variations of a different approach. Which is to experiment to get to a certain tone we want to achieve. In the process we have learned to compensate for some of the variables inherent in less than 100% perfect duplicates of alloys, etc. Maybe we understand exactly why and how to compensate, or we don't, but we arrive at a certain tone we are seeking one way or the other.

In the end if the CUSTOMER likes that he gets the tone he is seeking wth HIS guitar and with his equipment, playing style and so on. I am not sure, in the end, if he reallly cares HOW the winder did it. I know there is a lot more concern on the how before he buys, but after he buys he is only concerned with the results.

[big_teee]

Maybe the cause and effect is being confused? Maybe the came cause that makes some winders interested in PAFs also results in their noticing some of the finer, more subtle aspects of pickups? I could be wrong.

But I find it hard to imagine people do not notice that after one day, their pickups tend to sound better than the first day. It is evident to my ears every time I install a new set. But if you do not notice it, then maybe either you have not paid attention to this, or the things I listen for are different than the things you listen for. We all have our own references, experiences and parameters.

I will not discount yours if you do not discount or minimize mine.

It Could be the working Late Phenomenon.
Any thing I work on Late, I get Numb, and can't tell, or hear Shite from Shinola!
The next morning I listen again, If I think it still sounds good, we go from there.
If It Still Sounds bad I Scrap it.
The Settling in thing could be a couple of things.
The Magnets could be Leveling out.
The Other thing is mental conditioning.
Your getting used to it (BrainWashed), and accepting it's sound to be the way you think it should sound.
Just my 2 Cents.
Keep Rocking!
Terry

[David Schwab]

It Could be the working Late Phenomenon.
Any thing I work on Late, I get Numb, and can't tell, or hear Shite from Shinola!
The next morning I listen again, If I think it still sounds good, we go from there.
If It Still Sounds bad I Scrap it.

This is the same thing that happens when you are trying to mix down a recording. You get listening fatigue and you have to come back the next day with fresh ears.

I have had the same thing happen with pickups. I hated them on day one, liked them better the next day or two. However, I know that they did not break in or change their tone, because I recorded them on the first try, and a week later they sound just like that recording. But I got used to them.

The other thing as SKATTERBRANE pointed out is, people tweak their amp and even their playing for the new pickups. What worked for one set doesn't work for another.

[David Schwab]

But I find it hard to imagine people do not notice that after one day, their pickups tend to sound better than the first day. It is evident to my ears every time I install a new set. But if you do not notice it, then maybe either you have not paid attention to this, or the things I listen for are different than the things you listen for. We all have our own references, experiences and parameters.

You get used to hearing them. That's all it is.

I've installed pickups, hated them on the first day, and hated them a month later. There was nothing wrong with them, but I didn't care for them. These were commercial pickups, but it's also true of some of my prototypes. They don't change and get better. They sound the way they sound. What changes is your perception of them.

People do this with lots of stuff, and it's called "acquiring a taste" for something. You might hate a certain wine the first time you have it, and later you love it.

If you want hard evidence to see if your pickups "break in", just make a recording of them on day one, and then make another some time later with all the settings the same. Chances are they will sound the same on both recordings. But you didn't hear them the same. This is what I do on every new pickup design.

[big_teee]

You get used to hearing them. That's all it is.

I've installed pickups, hated them on the first day, and hated them a month later. There was nothing wrong with them, but I didn't care for them. These were commercial pickups, but it's also true of some of my prototypes. They don't change and get better. They sound the way they sound. What changes is your perception of them.

People do this with lots of stuff, and it's called "acquiring a taste" for something. You might hate a certain wine the first time you have it, and later you love it.

If you want hard evidence to see if your pickups "break in", just make a recording of them on day one, and then make another some time later with all the settings the same. Chances are they will sound the same on both recordings. But you didn't hear them the same. This is what I do on every new pickup design.

+1
You call it Acquiring a taste, I call it Brain Wash!
B_T

[Possum]

Arriving at the same results Gibson did in the 50's actually isn't quite possible. Steel was made quite differently, if I had rather large funding I could probably dial all the steel parts in much closer, I know enough to have it done, but magnet wire is the biggest obstacle, you could get closer, again with good funding, but not dead on. Magnets too, I don't really believe they can be copied 100% either, materials and methods are too different now. A big clue there is when you rewind PAF's you get more brightness and clarity, the old wire had some definite "magic" to that modern wire just doesn't give us. I've pretty much hit the limit of modern materials and can't go any further, so have to live with that. I keep hoping the Chinese will make plain enamel wire a little better, hoping it will be more crude like the old stuff was. Years ago Guitar Jones (R.I.P) imported plain enamel from Korea, the stuff was the SHIT! Crude and difficult to work with but sounded wonderful in everything. I tried to find somewhere over there to buy a spool or two and no luck.....

[RedHouse]

...Years ago Guitar Jones (R.I.P) ...

Did someone pass?

[RedHouse]

This is the same thing that happens when you are trying to mix down a recording. You get listening fatigue and you have to come back the next day with fresh ears.

I have had the same thing happen with pickups. I hated them on day one, liked them better the next day or two. However, I know that they did not break in or change their tone, because I recorded them on the first try, and a week later they sound just like that recording. But I got used to them.

The other thing as SKATTERBRANE pointed out is, people tweak their amp and even their playing for the new pickups. What worked for one set doesn't work for another.

I'm not dismissing Possum's (or Skatterbrain's) opinion, if they believe that ...more power to 'em. My post was an objection to passing that off as an across-the-board fact, and don't find the described changes as the case with my own pickups, a slight change occurs initially but again I believe its the unit as a whole settling into its final configuration.
(but, in a matter of minutes)

I don't believe a pickup build changes it's parameters enough to change it's tone as described.

If you wound a coil (or set) and managed to get them into an instrument and playable within a minute or two, they would change tone as the copper wire cools off (cooling and/or tension settling) one can even see that effect when measuring DCR immediately after and again after 5/10 minutes or so, but after that ...(IMHO)... it's about the magnets settling into their final configuration and I'm of the opinion that happens in a matter of minutes not days.

I totally agree with David.S on attributing it (changing after days) to the users dynamics changing (fingers & ears) and tweaking the pickup height/poles. A user's dynamics changing happens conciously and unconciously every time a player plays. It's a self-adapting thing (almost all) musicians do when they play, it's how a musician achives the desired effect such as chord/note voicings, picking dynamics/position/attack, string noise ctrl, etc.

The nuances of the human touch and ear are always underestimated in their contribution to tone. Reminds me of the article which described a event when Ted Nugent during a sound check where Edddie Van Halen's gear was present, Ted tried Eddie's rig (guitar/amp/effects) and sounded ...just like Ted Nugent... it's that self-adapting thing in-play where the musician adjusts their personal dynamics to achieve the tone they desire.