New Mojotone Butyrate humbucker bobbins. How accurate are they ?

[Steve Conner]

We know magnets lose charge with age. So why is it so strange that pickups break in?

When the magnets are assembled into a pickup with other magnets, polepieces, etc., the reluctance of the magnetic circuit changes, and therefore the operating points of the magnets shift a bit along the B-H curves. Maybe they take a couple of weeks to settle into their new operating point, during which time the value measured by a gaussmeter would slowly be changing.

And likewise for magnetic materials that are only semi-soft such as the pole pieces and keeper bars. Maybe temperature cycling affects the process too.

You could maybe prove or disprove this with a gaussmeter, if you were able to use one accurately and repeatably, but gauss measuring always looked like a pretty hit-and-miss process to me. Maybe you could stick it to the pickup and leave it untouched for a week, except for reading it every day.

[big_teee]

I'm not dismissing Possum's (or Skatterbrain's) opinion, if they believe that ...more power to 'em. My post was an objection to passing that off as an across-the-board fact, and don't find the described changes as the case with my own pickups, a slight change occurs initially but again I believe its the unit as a whole settling into its final configuration.
(but, in a matter of minutes)

I don't believe a pickup build changes it's parameters enough to change it's tone as described.

If you wound a coil (or set) and managed to get them into an instrument and playable within a minute or two, they would change tone as the copper wire cools off (cooling and/or tension settling) one can even see that effect when measuring DCR immediately after and again after 5/10 minutes or so, but after that ...(IMHO)... it's about the magnets settling into their final configuration and I'm of the opinion that happens in a matter of minutes not days.

I totally agree with David.S on attributing it (changing after days) to the users dynamics changing (fingers & ears) and tweaking the pickup height/poles. A user's dynamics changing happens conciously and unconciously every time a player plays. It's a self-adapting thing (almost all) musicians do when they play, it's how a musician achives the desired effect such as chord/note voicings, picking dynamics/position/attack, string noise ctrl, etc.

The nuances of the human touch and ear are always underestimated in their contribution to tone. Reminds me of the article which described a event when Ted Nugent during a sound check where Edddie Van Halen's gear was present, Ted tried Eddie's rig (guitar/amp/effects) and sounded ...just like Ted Nugent... it's that self-adapting thing in-play where the musician adjusts their personal dynamics to achieve the tone they desire.

Maybe These Guys need to Put their pickups in the freezer for an Hour.
That way They could save a Month or two, of settling in.
B_T

[RedHouse]

Maybe These Guys need to Put their pickups in the freezer for an Hour.
That way They could save a Month or two, of settling in.
B_T

Shhh!

[RedHouse]

We know magnets lose charge with age. So why is it so strange that pickups break in? ...

I've said that I believe it does happen but dis-agreed with the time frame. I am of the opinion that changes occur but in the first few minutes (<24 Hrs) as opposed to the play them in for a few weeks and they will change camp.




I know breaking in a speaker the tone can change, the magnet will get some stress from applying high power AC signals through the voice coil and the spider and suspension components get loosened up and used to flexing, but a pickup isn't the same situation.

[big_teee]

It's not the same thing at all as breaking in a speaker cone.
Breaking in a New Speaker is like breaking in a new Pair of Leather shoes.
Everything has to get loose and limbered up.
Back to the Hour In the Freezer at Zero.
You could charge extra for the Country Boy Cryogentic Treatment.
You could add that to the list of BS for Your Souped up Genuine, PAF, Counterfeit KnockOff Pickups!
Just A Thought!
B_T

[David Schwab]

We know magnets lose charge with age. So why is it so strange that pickups break in?

Do we really know that? Ive read conflicting info saying that magnets don't lose any appreciable charge over their lifetime. We have a lot of 50+ year old guitar out there with magnets that haven't lost much of a charge.

So why would we expect a change in a few weeks?

[David Schwab]

Did someone pass?

I've been told by one of my customers that they are out of business, but the website is still up, so who knows?

[SKATTERBRANE]

I do not think the charge of the magnet changes much in 50 years, under normal conditions. I do not know the science but I DO know that when I install a new set of pickups, they always sound much better the next day. And, many of my customers say they sound better after a few weeks or even months. I have not personally noticed much change after the first 24 hours.

[Manlius]

Dave and Redhouse.
If you've never heard this personally, well all I gotta say is you definitely aren't doing anything remotely like I am ;-) and actually that makes me smile quite broadly, he he... LOVE those StewMac kit buckers, LOL ;-)
A week later he wrote me a long "love" letter about how much he was enjoying them. I have a very good workable theory why my PAF repros are doing this more than the StewMac kit buckers, but maybe it'll be in my new book.......or not ;-)

Now Possum, why knock Stew-Mac as a means to put other pickup builders down when you took the time to respond favorably to their P90 bobbins in their user response section?

STEWMAC.COM : P-90 Pickup Kits

So what, the P90 stuff is legit and the humbucker stuff isn't? I'm confused....

[WolfeMacleod]

Now Possum, why knock Stew-Mac as a means to put other pickup builders down when you took the time to respond favorably to their P90 bobbins in their user response section?

STEWMAC.COM : P-90 Pickup Kits

So what, the P90 stuff is legit and the humbucker stuff isn't? I'm confused....

That's ok. Here's some more funny stuff.

WHAWAAHAHAHAHAH!

Dave said...

. I don't use butyrate bobbins and its a cool thing to have but doesn't affect the tone, the dielectric of ABS plastic and butyrate are nearly identical, there's just no audio effect. I might get them in the future but don't see a real need for them.

But these days, it's quite a different story! I could swear that I've seen Dave recently claiming that only Butyrate bobbins will work to get that sound as well, and now Allparts parts suck.

BWHAHAHA.

And Gundry says...

If you are using butyrate bobbins the warping and shrinking actually happens right away ..

Yet, here recently recently, he's claiming that Butyrate bobbins do NOT shrink...

There is not just one bobbin height for P.A.F. bobbins. I think this creates a bit of confusion. FWIW my plastics molder does not think shrinkage is a a major factor with butyrate beyond the cool down shrinkage. P.A.F. bobbins use butyrate with a lower plasticizer level than P-90 covers or M-69 rings. There are plastics that have such a cool down shrinkage that they are sometimes dropped right from the mold into water to shock cool them to minimize shrinking. Butyrate is not one of these plastics though.

Man that's some funny stuff. If you follow Dave's and Jon's posts over multiple forums, you can see how thier story seems to change. Frequently.

By the way, I have a Customer who works for DOW. Didn't know about it till the other day when he called for pickups.
Butyrate DOES shrink.

He's currently looking into the difference between the PE they well to MWS and AWC

[JGundry]

Wolfe, news flash, Dow does not make CAB. Eastman is the only western maker of raw cab. Basf also used to make it but no longer. You can pull up plenty of specs. from Eastman.

I think you are confused about cab shrinkage. Basically if you read what you quoted the shrinkage for cab is during the molding process. Any off gassing shrinkage if any would likely be in the first months after molding. Major shrinkage after that would be from heat exposure imho.

[WolfeMacleod]

Wolfe, news flash, Dow does not make CAB. Eastman is the only western maker of raw cab. Basf also used to make it but no longer. You can pull up plenty organ specs. on there.

News Flash, the various plastics injectors and suppliers I spoke to over the last week (20+ of them, including a local one) have said "call DOW."
News flash, I've spoken with DOW.

New Flash - Dow makes CAB as well. Gotta get to the right department, apparently, and the idiot lady at the switchboard wasn't sure who it is. I had a hard time with it initially, until that customer called with a DOW number. I thought it was DOW calling me back about the Butyrate.
I think it's a case of Left Hand/Right Hand at DOW.

[Manlius]

I Dunno Wolfe, i think JGundry is on the up and up - he kinda puts it all out there for everybody to see and thats cool. Possum, on the other hand, may very well be full of BS.... I'm not really sure and don't know if I want to waste my time seeing. I'll check back in 3 months to see if he is still complaining how Mojo plates age! In the meantime Wolfe, if I'm ever up your way i'll buy you a cocktail....

[WolfeMacleod]

I Dunno Wolfe, i think JGundry is on the up and up - he kinda puts it all out there for everybody to see and thats cool. Possum, on the other hand, may very well be full of BS.... I'm not really sure and don't know if I want to waste my time seeing. I'll check back in 3 months to see if he is still complaining how Mojo plates age! In the meantime Wolfe, if I'm ever up your way i'll buy you a cocktail....

I think that Jon hasn't found the right person to speak to there, is all. I sure wasn't able to get to the right place by calling them for sure.

[Possum]

Actually the Stew Mac "review" was not a review at all. I didn't put that star rating there, I just asked if they could sell the parts individually because I have some customers who want my P90X set which uses Forbon flatwork, which I hate making, would rather buy it premade. They won't sell them seperately so I have no idea what coil design they are so don't know if I would even buy them or not. I think the star rating was there by default, I don't think you can leave it blank by default so they put the full star rating there. I've never actually used any of that stuff, though I do like their dog ear covers. Go read my actual post.

Wolfe I would like to know where you read I am saying butyrate is anything special because its NOT. I offer butyrate as an upgrade for LOOKS, its more durable and ages better than ABS does, it has NO effect on tone at all. You should try them because its not a Japanese coil design and does sound very different than SM bobbin design. I like the look and smell of them ;-) Plus its an authentic material for those who want it. Some want it some don't. The creme is a nice color alternative to the ABS bobbins.

I complained about how Mojo baseplates "age?" You guys seem to read what you want to read and not what I said, get a grip ;-) I complained the the METAL CONTENT CHANGED. Guess you missed that? Nickel silver doesn't turn shit brown when you dunk it in ferric, their current baseplates are not nickel silver but some strange mix of metal and they no longer contribute a crisp clear tone to neck buckers, they suddenly got too dark for my uses.

As for magnets, sorry but EVERY PAF I've dissected (I've lost count...) has had seriously undergaussed magnets inside, I always recharge them and even then they are very low power magnets. Jim at WCR once talked to an old magnet sales guy who told him Gibson always bought their reject magnets to get a better deal. I've actually seen magnets that were defective and wouldn't charge barely over 200 gauss, which tends to substantiate this. Substandard alnico won't hold a charge for 60 years, if you bought Chinese magnets when they were first being offered some of them lost probably half their charge in a pretty short time. Alnico loses charge pretty easily. I always "temper" mine by fully charging then using a ceramic to oppose the charge and knock off the excess which it will lose anyway, so they are stable when they go out. This is in the literature and a common practice in magnet manufacturers when they do work for high tech companies, my metallurgist friend sent me a pdf of one such paper.

As for being full of "bull," sorry you won't find me making statements designed just to part people from their money, if you don't keep it REAL in this business, your fairy tales will come back to bite you because players will find out what you're saying isn't true. Now WHY would I make up some story about pickups "breaking-in?" I hate that they do this, its a big negative that I have to deal with it in prototypes because if I don't play them for at least 3 weeks, and make a judgement call on whether they are doing what I want them to do, it becomes a huge mistake and throws everything out the window. Not fun.