So what in solder "sounds" bad, and what can be done about it?

[belwar]

So here's a question thats got me thinking. According to the interwebs, traditional tin/lead solder is "supposed" to sound bad - though in quantities used in pickups I cant hear a difference. However, i'm soon getting to the point that im going to be soldering some circuit boards which got me to thinking: what is it about tin lead solder that sounds bad? Is it one of the two metals? is it the state of the alloy (i.e. annealed)?

[defaced]

I think it's the ears of the people who are hearing things that are bad. There's nothing wrong with the solder.

[Alan0354]

Psychosomatic!!! They are all good conducting material. Don't buy into all the superstition stuff.....Yes, it is nothing more than superstition. I am working on electronics for guitar and I PARTICULARLY use metal film resistors instead of the "vintage" carbon resistors. I use cheap ceramic cap instead of "the orange" caps. We use the same ceramics for hundreds of MHz and even to 2.4GHz for wireless circuits, don't tell me that their ESR or whatever is not as good!!!!

[Bill M]

More important than the solder that you are using is your technique. Making sure your component has good physical contact with the circuit it is being soldered to, instead of relying on the solder to make that connection for you. When I was in the Navy I went to a month long school on nothing but soldering techniques and the instructor used to inspect our solder joints under a microscope.

[David Schwab]

Nothing wrong with tin/lead solder. And think of all the amps and other gear you would be plugging into soldered with the stuff!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I know a guy who had a habit of picking up old silverface Fenders used all the time - the ones that can be had fairly cheaply. He's said that he has gotten amps to noticeably improve in sound by going through and touching up all of the foul looking solder joints. I trust his ears. So, I'm going to second the "technique over solder type" bid.

I'm sure that the type of solder does introduce a small series resistance into the circuit, but since a good solder joint is vastly superior to a physical joint to begin with, I don't see how it could matter in guitars. I'm going to guess that people who have had legitimately different results with different types of solder have one of a couple things going on: 1. they're doing wave soldering on some board with many, many joints and the cumulative effects could actually be noticeable, (probably would have to be a HUGE number of joints) or 2. their technique is changing based on the solder their using. A lot of people have problems with RoHS, for example. If a given solder doesn't agree with them or their technique and has a higher failure rate, then they can just find something else. Just a couple guesses there...

[frankfalbo]

I've also heard that solder sounds bad, mostly from HiFi guys. Solder 101 says to make a good mechanical connection first; don't use a solder ball to make a connection. None of us would use a string of solder as "wire" between two screw terminals right? I don't think the answer is more expensive solder so much as it's being mindful of your use and technique. I talk a little about it in one of the Liberator videos, how some people think a compression connection sounds better. Not because I think the Liberator sounds better than solder, because the very next thing that happens in the Liberator is a soldered connection. But mainly because I don't want anyone thinking it's somehow worse.

[Jazz P Bass]

Actually, standard tin/ lead solder has a small amount of the element antimony added to the mixture to improve electron migration.

[big_teee]

The wire needs to be in full contact with the terminal before Soldering.
It's important that there is no cold solder Joint.
Flux also helps make a good solder Connection.
B_T

[Alan0354]

I've also heard that solder sounds bad, mostly from HiFi guys. Solder 101 says to make a good mechanical connection first; don't use a solder ball to make a connection. None of us would use a string of solder as "wire" between two screw terminals right? I don't think the answer is more expensive solder so much as it's being mindful of your use and technique. I talk a little about it in one of the Liberator videos, how some people think a compression connection sounds better. Not because I think the Liberator sounds better than solder, because the very next thing that happens in the Liberator is a soldered connection. But mainly because I don't want anyone thinking it's somehow worse.

I don't want to say about HiFi, in the power section of a solid state amp, the current is very high, that is a different animal than what we are talking here. But I still think it is psychosomatic!! I am kind of audiophile, I can tell you the speaker output cable really make a big difference. I actually tested and I end up using 4 pairs of 12 Gauge speaker cables for EACH speaker. Two pairs for the mid and tweeter and two pairs just for the woofer. This is because of the skin effect. If you do the calculation of the skin depth, you'll be very surprised even at 20KHz, the depth is about 1mm or so. I don't remember the exact skin depth, but it was around 1mm or so. You need to have fine strands and pairs in parallel to increase the surface area to lower the inductance and surface resistance.

[David King]

The only "bad solder sound" comes from bad solder joints, bad joints come from improperly cleaned surfaces and cold joints. Using a solder that contains an effective flux and a formula that's eutectic (goes from a liquid to a solid in a very narrow temperature range) will help with both conditions. I'd say 90% of it still comes down to technique. Clearly solder isn't going to be as good a conductor as copper or silver but for the few microns of gap between the pad and the component lead I doubt anyone can hear anything "bad" other than their brain telling them what it want's to hear.

[imaradiostar]

I don't want to say about HiFi, in the power section of a solid state amp, the current is very high, that is a different animal than what we are talking here. But I still think it is psychosomatic!! I am kind of audiophile, I can tell you the speaker output cable really make a big difference. I actually tested and I end up using 4 pairs of 12 Gauge speaker cables for EACH speaker. Two pairs for the mid and tweeter and two pairs just for the woofer. This is because of the skin effect. If you do the calculation of the skin depth, you'll be very surprised even at 20KHz, the depth is about 1mm or so. I don't remember the exact skin depth, but it was around 1mm or so. You need to have fine strands and pairs in parallel to increase the surface area to lower the inductance and surface resistance.

I find all of this hard to believe. Think about how many studios are wired with cheap wire and the recordings they produce are considered perfect or magical. Not to mention all of the various opamps a recording is run through before it ever hits a single ended triode hifi amp.

I lived in Nashville for about 12 years. I was talking to an engineer friend and heard a story of a room full of golden-eared hi-fi guys having a blind "speaker cable shootout." They tried many different kinds of very expensive wire. The engineer making the physical connections thought he'd mess with the group by wiring the speakers using coat hangers on a given test. Coat hangers twisted together and strung from amp to speaker! In the end all of these golden eared people were unable to tell coat hangers from wire costing many hundreds of dollars!

Is it true? No idea. But it does make one think.

I'm just saying I don't buy it.

jamie

[big_teee]

I find all of this hard to believe. Think about how many studios are wired with cheap wire and the recordings they produce are considered perfect or magical. Not to mention all of the various opamps a recording is run through before it ever hits a single ended triode hifi amp.

I lived in Nashville for about 12 years. I was talking to an engineer friend and heard a story of a room full of golden-eared hi-fi guys having a blind "speaker cable shootout." They tried many different kinds of very expensive wire. The engineer making the physical connections thought he'd mess with the group by wiring the speakers using coat hangers on a given test. Coat hangers twisted together and strung from amp to speaker! In the end all of these golden eared people were unable to tell coat hangers from wire costing many hundreds of dollars!

Is it true? No idea. But it does make one think.

I'm just saying I don't buy it.

jamie

I agree.
I believe in good quality cable and Parts, but beyond that, It can get pretty silly.
Terry

[Alan0354]

I find all of this hard to believe. Think about how many studios are wired with cheap wire and the recordings they produce are considered perfect or magical. Not to mention all of the various opamps a recording is run through before it ever hits a single ended triode hifi amp.

I lived in Nashville for about 12 years. I was talking to an engineer friend and heard a story of a room full of golden-eared hi-fi guys having a blind "speaker cable shootout." They tried many different kinds of very expensive wire. The engineer making the physical connections thought he'd mess with the group by wiring the speakers using coat hangers on a given test. Coat hangers twisted together and strung from amp to speaker! In the end all of these golden eared people were unable to tell coat hangers from wire costing many hundreds of dollars!

Is it true? No idea. But it does make one think.

I'm just saying I don't buy it.

jamie

I think the surface area of the speaker cable is valid, I don't buy the fancy expensive cables. I mentioned using 4 pairs per speaker, but I use the cheap stuff from OSH hardware store. I choose the fine strands 12 gauge wires. That has scientific explanation about the skin effect. Everyone think this only apply to RF, but if you use the formula and calculate at 20KHz, you'll be surprised. almost half of the 12 gauge wire is not conducting at 20KHz. Current only stay on the surface. So finer wire give a little more surface and multiple wire give a lot more surface. That is the reason I don't buy the expensive cables.......I never open one, BUT if there are many 22 gauge insulated wires running in parallel, that will make sense, that will give you a lot of surface area and also as the wire get smaller, current will penetrate deep enough to conduct in the whole wire unlike one large diameter wire.

[frus]

and two pairs just for the woofer. This is because of the skin effect.

yeah, skin effect is really audible, especially when those woofer frequencies are concerned!

[/sarcasm]