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The reluctance fairy: a deceptive little devil

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  • The reluctance fairy: a deceptive little devil

    What does a fairy have to do with magnetic reluctance? Just an analogy to our economy and news media.

    If you watched CNN a couple of nights ago you might have seen Erin Burnett pretend to interview some congressman, I forget who, allowing him to invoke the confidence fairy unchallenged. The idea is that in times such as these, the government must practice austerity because that will give industry the confidence to start producing more, thus creating jobs. This works neither in theory nor practice. Industry produces more when it has good reason to believe it can sell what it produces. This requires money in the hands of the consumer.

    She also did not challenge his moronic assertion that you cannot raise the taxes on the rich (back to where they were in 2000) because it is their spending that keeps the economy going. Orders for yachts, and all that. Well, we all know that one characteristic of wealth is having more money than you need for immediate purchases. Raising taxes on the wealthy does not cut their spending that much. If you want to increase spending and get the economy moving, make sure those who are not wealthy have the bucks. They will spend them because they really need what they buy.

    These two fallacies are seen regularly in our news media, especially FOX.

    On this forum we have a similar situation with the reluctance fairy. Several people here often invoke this little demon in order to explain how pickups work.

    The intuitive appeal for the concept of magnetic circuits is this: understand ohm"s law (E = IR) and also understand how circuits using magnetism work. It is only this simple in certain special cases, and the guitar pickup is not one of them. As explained here: Magnetic circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, the more general analogy is between B = (mu)H and J = (sigma)E.

    The first equation means that if we set up an H field by establishing a system of currents, then the magnetic field at each point in space is determined by multiplying this field at each point by the permeability of the material at each point, including free space, which has a finite, but low, permeability. The second equation means that the current density at any point in space is given by the conductivity times the electric field.

    These equations have the same form, and it is true that solving one also solves a problem that applies to the other. However, both are more complicated than they look because of the underlying physics. For example, in general you know the conductivity at the beginning of problem, but you know neither the E field nor the current density. This is because the E field depends on the spatial change of the charge density, and currents move charge around. You have to seek a self-consistent solution to a differential equation.

    Neither equation is easier to solve than the other. A program such as FEMM, which solves the magnetic problem numerically also can be used to solve the electric problem.

    The simple form of the reluctance analogy using ohm's law works only when you have a tightly coupled circuit with very little leakage flux. An example is a steel core transformer with an enclosed core except for an air gap. The air gap has high reluctance, the steel low, and the reluctance around the circuit is given to a good approximation by the air, and can be computed easily. Using an analogy to the voltage source, one can compute the flux. Then you have what you need in order to apply the law of magnetic induction.

    Notice that last sentence: using reluctance does not replace the law of magnetic induction, it merely makes it easy to use in this case by helping you determine the flux.

    Now consider the pickup. We have open cores of magnetic material sitting in free space with a small bit of magnetic material over one end of each core (a section of the string). One can consider the circuit composed of flux passing through a core (and thus through the coil) and the string. But there is no easy way to compute the flux passing through the core and how it changes as the string moves. You simply have to solve the differential equation. And in doing so you recognize that there are a large steady field and a small varying one. You want the small varying one that is a result of the vibrating string. You find that by using the large steady field that the string sits in and its permeability. And then you solve for the changing field through the core.

    But what you never do is use the concept of variable reluctance as a source for intuitive ideas of how a pickup works. That is complete nonsense. Variable reluctance is a strictly mathematical analogy between similar equations. It has nothing to do with the intuitive understanding of the physics of pickups. For that you simply must understand the equations describing electromagnetism. You never invoke the reluctance fairy; the little devil is just going to confound you and make you believe things that are not true.

  • #2
    If you don't behave, she'll take all your teeth and leave you with a couple of Alnico rods.

    But wouldn't you agree that the pole pieces of a pickup, besides concentrating the field from the magnet, also concentrate the small varying field from the string, and lead it right down through the coils? To me that doesn't sit with your assertion that the turns nearest the strings do all the work. Well assuming the pole pieces aren't neo magnets with a permeability of 1.
    "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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    • #3
      Stephen... Lol

      Mike, can you think of a practical experiment to show this? It seems to me that the strings shorten the magnetic path and could cause the inductance to go up. If you raise your pickup up to touch the strings it seems the flux density would rise quite a bit due to the strings having less reluctance than air? Maybe a quick inductance test could prove if this is the case?

      The way I see it is: a magnetic circuit with an air gap and a coil; will generate a current to flow in the coil at the closing of the air gap with a permeable material. No? Is the string not a permeable material in/ near an air gap?

      This is interesting, but not sure if I totally follow

      I'm on my phone too. My security has blocked my computer from the site, so my editing will be not so good. Forgive me if my typing is sloppy
      Ethan

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steve Conner View Post
        If you don't behave, she'll take all your teeth and leave you with a couple of Alnico rods.

        But wouldn't you agree that the pole pieces of a pickup, besides concentrating the field from the magnet, also concentrate the small varying field from the string, and lead it right down through the coils? To me that doesn't sit with your assertion that the turns nearest the strings do all the work. Well assuming the pole pieces aren't neo magnets with a permeability of 1.
        Yes they do, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. But there is a difference between "concentrate" and "totally contain". A rod of magnetic material does the former. Flux escapes from the sides as you get further from the string, and so the loops of wire closer to the string contain somewhat more flux.

        Remember the old fashioned original stacked humbucker? Wind two coils on the cores, one above the other, and connect them with opposite polarity. Field lines from distant sources are nearly straight, affect both the same, and so cancel. Field lines from a source close to one end naturally diverge, but the pole piece slows the spread. But it still diverges, and so the top coil gets more signal. Thus the signals only partially cancel, and so you get a low output nearly hum free pickup.

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        • #5
          The string affects the inductance a little bit.

          The problem with variable reluctance comes when it is used as a tool to guide the intuition as to how pickups work. For example, it is often used to attempt to justify the belief that the magnitude and direction of the permanent field matter everywhere near the pickup and not just near the string.

          Originally posted by CRU JONES View Post
          Stephen... Lol

          Mike, can you think of a practical experiment to show this? It seems to me that the strings shorten the magnetic path and could cause the inductance to go up. If you raise your pickup up to touch the strings it seems the flux density would rise quite a bit due to the strings having less reluctance than air? Maybe a quick inductance test could prove if this is the case?

          The way I see it is: a magnetic circuit with an air gap and a coil; will generate a current to flow in the coil at the closing of the air gap with a permeable material. No? Is the string not a permeable material in/ near an air gap?

          This is interesting, but not sure if I totally follow

          I'm on my phone too. My security has blocked my computer from the site, so my editing will be not so good. Forgive me if my typing is sloppy
          Ethan

          Comment


          • #6
            Variable reluctance is a very widely used mathematical tool. It is neither good nor bad. It is useful, however.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think we should talk politics here as we have different opinion and some feel strongly about it. I do have the news on for hours everyday while I am studying and I really keep up with the politics. I happened to have a very opposite point of view as I started out as a pizza delivery while I was playing music in the late 70s and I was so poor. Plus I am a Chinese, a minority that see discrimination during that time. I worked harder, I studied 18 hours day for a long time to get into electronics field, I got promoted to engineer in two years from a little technician and I worked 60 hours week for years to move up the career leather. Even if you work hard, it also depend on how bright you are. This country promise you everyone has the same fair chance, but this country does not guaranty that even if you put in the same hour, that you can be as successful as the next person. The other person might just be brighter, work wiser or just plain luckier.

              I saw discrimination and injustice in my life, but I conquered it by putting in more effort and I managed to get a good living and retired at 53 with a few properties. Because I came out from nothing, I truly don't buy nor understand people playing class warfare, crying injustice. People that get rich WORK for it, you don't know the hours that they put in and only look at the Mercedes they are driving and the mention they live in. So many rich people have a humble start. I was so poor my former wife's family want to take their daughter back!!! I told them '"one day, one day". and they laughed!!! I showed them!!!!

              Over 50% of the people in the nation don't pay tax and the top 10% of the people pay over 70%, isn't it enough, where is the justice? You're not happy, work harder do something about it!!!! You think you are good, invent some electronics or work hard on a pickup that sound better than others. You want to be successful, stop spending time here and work on the marketing. When you get old, you still have to keep up instead of complaining about the world left you behind. I still put in 3 hours a day at least six days a week studying calculus, electromagnetics, RF, transmission lines, Phase lock loop etc. even I don't work. I have been studying like this since the day I stop working for the last 6 years. This is just in case one day I do need to go out and work. I am responsible to my own future, not the country. Don't have a good time when young and cry foul if the world left you behind when you get old. Believe me, the things that I study make designing guitar amp a cake walk and is only fun and game. those are dead serious stuff.

              Now I am getting older, memory is failing, I have to study things 4 or 5 times to really have it sink in. So instead of crying injustice and blame the world, I spend 3 years studying 3 different books on Electromagnetics, worked out all the problems in each book to understand and remember it. Other might need only one year, I need three, but I got there. Before that, I was weak in calculus, I spent 3 years, drop everything and study from Cal I all the way to partial differential equation to get me ready to study advance electromagnetics. I am in control of my own life, and I don't believe in blaming on the society for my laziness. There is a price to live in this world, nobody said you can live free or on other's shoulder. It's up to each one of us to plan for our own future, I never even count of the SS since in the 80s as it was quite clear it is not going to be around. The thing that really gets me is everyone lump SS and Medicare into entitlements. We paid into it our whole life. It is the Medicaid, welfare, housing that are the true entitlement because people don't pay in and just taking it.

              Sorry about the ranting, but I do feel very strongly about this seeing this country that I love going down the crapper and bunch of lazy "victims" crying injustice, discrimination, racist and all. People just want to take and take. How about giving something back to the society? How about listen to JFK in ask what you can give to the country, not what the country can give you!!!! Now I am retire, I spend a lot of my free time during study break going onto "Physics Forum" answering EE students and members and try to help them in their questions and problems or give advice on their career. This is my way of giving back a little to the place that I benefit so much. Also if you people have question, you can go there and ask. It is:

              Physics Help and Math Help - Physics Forums

              This is about the biggest forum of this kind around. We have people around the world joint that forum. Go to electrical engineering section. There are retired professors, life time engineers and brainy people willing to put in their time just to help people with their question. My user name is "yungman". You'll see me there all the time.......Much more so than here.
              Last edited by Alan0354; 11-28-2011, 08:15 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, your hard work and dedication sure paid off. The Chinese have put every other manufacturing country out of business and are now the richest SOBs in the world. I have to keep studying too, so I don't lose my job to someone like you. And put Chinese user interfaces on the instruments I build.

                The Chinese certainly don't seem like a minority as they stroll around London and Vancouver with their fancy cameras. (Why Vancouver? Last year Canada was made a "preferred tourist destination" by the Chinese government. And the west coast is only a shortish flight from China. I happened to be there at the time and the number of Chinese tourists was truly astonishing.)

                No, us Anglos are the minority now, in terms of economic might at least. The UK is teetering on the edge of recession, and this morning the radio news announced 5 billion worth of infrastructure projects to "spend our way out". Who are we borrowing the money from? One of the investors will be the Chinese state investment corporation.
                "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Steve Conner View Post
                  Well, your hard work and dedication sure paid off. The Chinese have put every other manufacturing country out of business and are now the richest SOBs in the world. I have to keep studying too, so I don't lose my job to someone like you. And put Chinese user interfaces on the instruments I build.

                  The Chinese certainly don't seem like a minority as they stroll around London and Vancouver with their fancy cameras. (Why Vancouver? Last year Canada was made a "preferred tourist destination" by the Chinese government. And the west coast is only a shortish flight from China. I happened to be there at the time and the number of Chinese tourists was truly astonishing.)

                  No, us Anglos are the minority now, in terms of economic might at least. The UK is teetering on the edge of recession, and this morning the radio news announced 5 billion worth of infrastructure projects to "spend our way out". Who are we borrowing the money from? One of the investors will be the Chinese state investment corporation.
                  Our "beloved" president is trying very hard to model our country to the European model. It is all about infrastructures that money only exchanging hands between people inside the country. Without a production base, we all have to buy from China and the money flow to China.....one way. This is not the way to have a sound recovery. But our president has absolute no idea how to deal with it. He just promote more union and demand more benefits for workers at the climate that jobs are loss to India and China. This just going to push more jobs overseas. He keep extending the unemployment to 2 years and beyond. A lot of people get $1000 every two weeks and pay very little tax. Who want to work with that kind of pay? I personally know a few that been working their whole and lost the job lately. They are really enjoying it!!!! I can't even describe so many things that gone wrong in our country. We gone from a really bad president(Bush) to the worst president ever. If we don't change, we are following the footstep of Greece and Spain. Our country has never been this divided, first the racial divide, now oblama is pushing for class warfare. That is the reason why can't help be type the long post. The most sickening thing is he has so much ties with the big rich companies. One of his economic advisor is Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE and GE did not pay a penny last year!!!

                  I am Chinese, but I am an American and I am not for China. I am not happy obama cater to China.

                  Yes today Chinese in US tend to do well, but that is not always like this. Not too many years ago we all were down in the dumps. But most of the Chinese in US work very hard, working two jobs to make ends meet, and slowly build the reputation. Problem with a lot of minorities are they keep complain about discrimination and use it as an excuse not to work hard. They just give up and said " we are being discriminated, there nothing I can do. So why work hard?". The worst is a lot of them take advantage of our country and cry racist every time they don't get their way. You overcome by working harder, set a good example and people will recognize it. You want people to respect you, earn it. You don't demand respect, you earn it.
                  Last edited by Alan0354; 11-28-2011, 09:31 AM.

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