It's Muddy or Warm. But How Do I Improve the Pickup?

[nicholaspaul]

I've started winding pickups. Yahoo! My first completed one is a blade style with two ceramics 8 magnets. The blade is 1/8" steel, ABS plastic bobbin, 42AWG wire and measures 6.6K.

Here is a photo of the bobbin before winding.

I tried to make sure the windings were as tight as possible.

The blade is flush with the top because I have it in a flat pickup cover. It's going in a hollow alder body guitar, but for now I have I tried it in a strat copy of mine. It sounds ok, but I can't decide if it's muddy or warm. The GFS next to it definitely sparkles more.

Obviously I have some trial and error to do. What would you suggest as a next step to improve the design and give it more top end and 'life'? Experiment with wider blades, taller bobbin, more windings?

Oh and I have an Alnico 5 Strat-style pickup in the works too.

[LtKojak]

My first completed one is a blade style with two ceramics 8 magnets. The blade is 1/8" steel, ABS plastic bobbin, 42AWG wire and measures 6.6K.

I tried to make sure the windings were as tight as possible.

The blade is flush with the top because I have it in a flat pickup cover. It's going in a hollow alder body guitar, but for now I have I tried it in a strat copy of mine. It sounds ok, but I can't decide if it's muddy or warm. The GFS next to it definitely sparkles more.

Obviously I have some trial and error to do. What would you suggest as a next step to improve the design and give it more top end and 'life'? Experiment with wider blades, taller bobbin, more windings?

DC reading suggest 9K turns. Close to the P-90 design. Is this design intended for the bridge p'up?

If you lack some high-end, I'd blame it on the steel bar conducting the magnetic field, having not enough carbon content. Humbucker slugs are made of 1018 steel, so you should know what are you using. Another thing to look after is the physical contact with the magnet/s, the tighter, the "better" (if more trasmission of the magnetic field means better to you).

HTH,

[copperheadroads]

Did you tape off the steel slug to prevent the magnet wire from shorting
other than that ,I could be the what Pepe suggested
Up here in Canada i have been using flatbar steel from canadian tire "steelworks" if i remember correctly
i think it's 1018 & it does sound pretty good

[David Schwab]

What position are you installing it in? If it's at the neck, I'd wind less wire on it.

Also, as others have said, tape up the blade before you wind. You may have a short. You can test this by measuring the resistance between one end of the coil and the blade.

[nicholaspaul]

Thanks for your comments, guys. I think I chose the wrong picture here. The correct one would have shown ABS spacers keeping the wire from the blade - there is a spacer the width of the blade and about 1/2" high on each side.

I wound to resistance rather than turns and based the 6.4 figure on the Tex-Mex pickups, but it seems that may be too much.

Dave - I have it installed in the neck position at the moment. I just measured the other pickups. The (ceramic) bridge is 4.96 and the (alnico) middle is 5.3k. Does that mean I should be winding ceramics with fewer windings?
I tested the resistance between one end of the coil and the blade and didn't get a reading.

Is all steel likely to be labelled 1018, or is there some other marking/rating I should look for? Actually Copperhead I got this from Lowes. I should try Canadian Tire. Great store, lousy customer service.

Kojak, I don't have the magnets fixed at the moment. They are just stuck on with magnetism and a little vinyl tape to stop them falling off.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Are you sure your magnets have the correct pole facing the blade? I've never had luck with keeping them in correct orientation without some good glue. The magnets will want to repel each other and need to be held on as such - if they are attracting each other they are on wrong, unless I'm misunderstanding your set up.

I agree with the others that circa 9000 turns is an awful lot for a lot of pickups. When you have a solid blade in there, you already have one strike on the side of muddy/compressed, so overwinding on top of that can be risky - though it is pretty open ended. I never wind to resistance, and find the concept a bit confusing/frustrating. Do you have a counter?

I think the generic pieces of steel sold at Lowes and Home Despot (if memory serves me well) are low carbon, 1008-1010 or 1018. It very well could be a great material for this, but the problem with sourcing materials in that way is you never quite know what it is, and if they decide to change what they're selling, it'll be hard to get back into what you want.

[LtKojak]

I wound to resistance rather than turns and based the 6.4 figure on the Tex-Mex pickups, but it seems that may be too much.

That's the wrong way to do it. You wound for turns, as DC reading will change with temperature and the tension you apply to the winding.

For neck and middle p'ups, I'd try with 7,755 turns of #42 SPN wire, and 8,830 turns of the same wire for the bridge.

HTH,

[nicholaspaul]

Are you sure your magnets have the correct pole facing the blade? I've never had luck with keeping them in correct orientation without some good glue. The magnets will want to repel each other and need to be held on as such - if they are attracting each other they are on wrong, unless I'm misunderstanding your set up.

I'm pretty sure I have them on right- poles facing each other. I had them the other way around at first and the signal was very very low.

I agree with the others that circa 9000 turns is an awful lot for a lot of pickups. When you have a solid blade in there, you already have one strike on the side of muddy/compressed, so overwinding on top of that can be risky - though it is pretty open ended. I never wind to resistance, and find the concept a bit confusing/frustrating. Do you have a counter?

I just stop every 10 minutes or so, sand off a little coating, measure the resistance, spray the naked part with lacquer and guesstimate how far before I reach the goal.
I have a counter, but have had some trouble with it. A reed switch mounted behind the pickup and a magnet on the pickup mounting. I wired a calculator to count when the switch is opened. It works without a pickup mounted, up to about 250RPM, but when I mount a pickup it refused to work, except when I hand wind (i.e. very very slowly). I might just try to get a commercial counter of some ind.

I think the generic pieces of steel sold at Lowes and Home Despot (if memory serves me well) are low carbon, 1008-1010 or 1018. It very well could be a great material for this, but the problem with sourcing materials in that way is you never quite know what it is, and if they decide to change what they're selling, it'll be hard to get back into what you want.

Where do other people shop?

[David Schwab]

Thanks for your comments, guys. I think I chose the wrong picture here. The correct one would have shown ABS spacers keeping the wire from the blade - there is a spacer the width of the blade and about 1/2" high on each side.

I wound to resistance rather than turns and based the 6.4 figure on the Tex-Mex pickups, but it seems that may be too much.

Dave - I have it installed in the neck position at the moment. I just measured the other pickups. The (ceramic) bridge is 4.96 and the (alnico) middle is 5.3k. Does that mean I should be winding ceramics with fewer windings?
I tested the resistance between one end of the coil and the blade and didn't get a reading.

Is all steel likely to be labelled 1018, or is there some other marking/rating I should look for? Actually Copperhead I got this from Lowes. I should try Canadian Tire. Great store, lousy customer service.

Kojak, I don't have the magnets fixed at the moment. They are just stuck on with magnetism and a little vinyl tape to stop them falling off.

Wind the bridge the hottest, and the neck the coolest. The neck position is always the loudest, and the bridge position is weaker because of the way the strings vibrate. So you have to compensate for it. Makes no difference about the magnet in this case. Try swapping them around.

Also, you should rig up a counter. Winding to resistance is a pain, and not consistent. Wind by the number of turns.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm pretty sure I have them on right- poles facing each other. I had them the other way around at first and the signal was very very low.

Okay, that sounds right. From your description earlier, I couldn't tell if you have opposite poles facing each other, which would make it sound terrible/broken. My experience has been that older pickups with ceramic magnets glued to the bottom sometimes break free and the magnets flip by themselves (as the magnet force behind them wants to do) into this position, so I thought perhaps that was what you ended up with.

[nicholaspaul]

Okay, that sounds right. From your description earlier, I couldn't tell if you have opposite poles facing each other, which would make it sound terrible/broken. My experience has been that older pickups with ceramic magnets glued to the bottom sometimes break free and the magnets flip by themselves (as the magnet force behind them wants to do) into this position, so I thought perhaps that was what you ended up with.

I was a little upset when I had the magnets in with opposite poles facing. What had I done?!! NOO! I was going to glue them in when I was sure it was going to be ok.
I put the pickup in the bridge positing - much MUCH better! It's not strat like, but then I didn't expect it to be. Now to wind the rest and see what happens.

Anyone have luck getting a reed switch to work properly?

[nicholaspaul]

Wind the bridge the hottest, and the neck the coolest. The neck position is always the loudest, and the bridge position is weaker because of the way the strings vibrate. So you have to compensate for it. Makes no difference about the magnet in this case. Try swapping them around.

Also, you should rig up a counter. Winding to resistance is a pain, and not consistent. Wind by the number of turns.

I seeeeee. That makes a lot of sense. Yea, it sounds way better in the bridge

What can I use, other than a reed switch?

[nicholaspaul]

It's ok , I just managed to hook up my calculators with a new switch. News at 9, pictures at 11.

[Ward]

I wound to dcr for years coz I thought it was too expensive and or two hard to figure out how to set up a counter, when I finally did I realized just how behind the 8 ball I was without it.
Even though I hand wind I can now lay down a pretty good TPL, TPL as most will know has a big effect on the end result, without a counter you're not even in the game. Blundering blindly I think.

[nicholaspaul]

I have a counter hooked up, but having trouble getting it working properly (i.e., consistently). I'm hoping to get it fixed soon. I can see now that windings is more important than DCR. It is a little confusing for a beginner like me because pickups are always sold by resistance. We are made to believe that a certain resistance means vintage, higher means hot and more output, etc. More myths to debunk!