What do you guys know about the "Rosie Wrap" early 50s winding style?

[corduroyew]

so there is no special winding pattern?

There are special winding patterns... Kind of. For a long time when I wound my coils they were lumpy looking but they sounded great. Later decided I needed to make them look more even so I changed my winding pattern. The pickups looked nice and tidy but they sounded much less interesting. With a bit of practice I learned to use the same kind of hand movement I did with my early pickups, but I got better at laying the wire down so it looked nice. Now my pickups sound good and they look good too. Obviously the winding pattern changed the sound. I also use a different pattern now then I did on my 1st pickups because the coils look different. The new pickups I make sound pretty much the same as my early pickups. What does this tell us? Winding patter matters, but it isn't as exacting as some people would like you to believe. If it were an exact science, hand winders would never get consistent results.

can you explain why his pickups get rave reviews from everyone?
i have not read one review where a person was not in love with his
pickup. some of these reviews indictated that the person already had
tele pickups from people well known on this forum and they like the rosie
wind better. on the tele forum one person after another stated they loved
his pickups. on the gear page other people liked his pickups.
also the les paul forum.

people are loving this guys pickups

whats the deal?

When I was a psychology student I once did an experiment that might be able to help answer a question about why somebody might say great things about pickups that are not nice. In the experiment I went to a music shop. In the shop there were 3 Tacoma brand guitars and 3 Taylor guitars built with similar shape and materials. I don’t remember how many people we got to participate in the experiment but I think it was a couple hundred people over the course of 2 or 3 weeks. In a blind test 80% of the people that played these guitars said they liked 1 of the Tacoma guitars best. Then we had them play all the guitars again but this time we assigned a (somewhat) random price to the guitar. 99% of the people said they liked the most expensive guitar the most. When the same people knew that guitar they were playing 97% of the people said they liked one of the Taylor guitars the most.

The moral of this story is that people put a lot of stock in a name. They put even more stock in a price tag. A persons perception of tone changes when they know (or think they know) a brand name and a price.

[kevinT]

Excuse me waiter......

Could i have some chili and cheese on my Nachos Banos.

[Spence]

I'll explain his rave reviews for you. Firstly the people on his forum have to worship his ass or they get banned.
Secondly, they find it embarrassing to admit they wasted their money.
Thirdly, he writes his own reviews under pseudonyms on all manner of forums.

It's obviously working for him if you believe it Trioderob. You wouldn't happen to have a set would you?

[Dave Kerr]

I live about 10 miles from the Iguana Cantina, it's a lousy restaurant patronized by desperate, boozy frat boys.

[trioderob]

I'll explain his rave reviews for you. Firstly the people on his forum have to worship his ass or they get banned.
Secondly, they find it embarrassing to admit they wasted their money.
Thirdly, he writes his own reviews under pseudonyms on all manner of forums.

It's obviously working for him if you believe it Trioderob. You wouldn't happen to have a set would you?

I do not work for him or own his pickups.
I was think of getting a set of his pickups

you made some powerful statements here that Mare could sue you over "Defamation of character " in a UK court if they are not true.

do you have proof?

[pupoholic]

I be this Don Mare person,

And first I would like to thank those who at least tried to answer the thread to the best of their knowledge...

next I think its high time to quit pups and write the worlds next New York best seller,
TITLED:
"How to make your customers think, hear, and say nothing but great things about your product"
or "How To sell Chevy's and make your customers actually believe they are driving Rolls Royces" by Don Mare...


Hello, spence
Look bro I'm sorry as heck, I had no idea.. that was you so long ago, over there at Telecastermasters Forum, Ranting and ramming my Forum members a new one.. when I banned you.. sorry it was you.. those guys are old and mellow there and they all own pups other then Don Mares and do not get booted off .. I have only booted, 4 to 6 guys, since I started it, most were from here 3 of yas.. and that was because you were all too much for me to handle or try to debate pickup designs with daily.. most pickup makers are a problem on all the regular forums.. as you all well know... we can be a full time job on a moderator... we know enough to be dangerious and enough to really get a brew-boiling..

Other then that I've never aimed any harm at you or anyone here.. also: I never Shilled my pups on any forums.. I advised a bro here not to do it once.. and he got caught red-handed.
That can only backfire on us.. my advise Never do it yourself or allow your customers to do it.,
You guys may find this hard to believe but I actually have to tame my customers down, I do not want them shouting praises all over town.. after all these years of these so called reissue Vintage pups we all "think" know better then to believe the hype.. Yet sometimes the rules in bussiness will change, and sooner or later something "new" comes along or something old is re-born and is well recived by the Customers"

It's sad to see such a "tall tale" grow out of a mole hill... or "center hump" ;-) ( the pickup that "the Hump" was dicovered on had a long history of being one of the best sounding vintage Teles in Texas - where there are many Teles, when it died it was sent to me, I discovered its secrets - recreated it and sent it back, Joel Foy (The owner) wrote a long letter back that I "did it" ..so we tried it here to see what it was all about and it sounded bigger and fuller then the other pups here from, Hamel, Stuart, Lollar, OC Duff, Fralin, etc.. there was no metalic harshness and no top end spikie-ness and the strings sounded 2 gauges bigger and also the amp sounded better like it had NOS tubes.... I knew on that day that I had just surpassed something in this Vintage reissue pup trade, and that I may have just built a better mouse trap...
soon the customers were raving and I was starting to see a future in being a winder/builder.. I was secduled to Go away and record a CD and then go on tour for a few years when this happened to take place.. I decided to stay put... at 50 years of age a tour bus is not the best bed I could try to catch my needed rest in..

So you all know my customers are old like me, they have owned everything there was intiled "Vintage Tone" out there in the puppy world.. even owned Vintage Fenders,
I must ask when's the last time you taught a 50 year old dog a new trick..???

Enjoy..and if ya still want to bash me go on ahead.. I don't care for this, but it seems to be very normal here to go NuTz and hang loose...

Have fun
Don

[Spence]

The problem I have with you Don is that you went from not knowing much (and I even sent you some string to wrap your bridge pickups with because you didn't know where to get it from ) to being supposedly the best Tele pickup maker on earth within a very short space of time.

You did rubbish any one else's claim to have produced pickups that could capture those Roy Buchanan tones. I even quoted you a write-up from a respected guitar journalist where he waxed lyrical about the Roy Buchanan tones he got from a set of my pickups. That kind of thing doesn't endear you to other long-qualified pickup makers.

If you didn't do that kind of thing there would never be a problem. I'm actually an easy going guy who's always happy to share information but I can't get over enthusiastic with demonic self promotion. It's fine to tell people you have a great product and be proud of the reviews but to insist that other pickup makers are rather below par in comparison is asking for retaliation.

Why not just have a little respect for other makers, especially the ones that have helped you on the way? It will earn you a lot more respect.

[Spence]

I do not work for him or own his pickups.
I was think of getting a set of his pickups.....Good for you. Why not, no problem there. Hope you like them

you made some powerful statements here that Mare could sue you over "Defamation of character " in a UK court if they are not true..... Rubbish sunshine. do you have proof?

Pay attention trioderob!
I didn't suggest you were working for him. I said his self promotion is obviously working for him if you believe it....

Whatever you do, don't spout off about laws and defamation of character and then write that I said something I didn't.

[pupoholic]

Thanks Spence,
I appriceate your willingness to patch up and move ahead.. thanks so much..

FWIW... not that I really care or feel I have something to prove as a winder,
I think Seymour Duncans staff and Jeff Lace were my real helpers along the way to this point in my career.
I did serve out a 5 year term ( apprinticeship) at Lace Music Products as a Jr. Pickup designer.under Jeff Lace
and really I owe Jeff Lace a HUGE bow.. for saving me from having many questions and from asking you guys a load of questions as I hit him up daily with many questions over those five years.. thats 1000's of questions.

While at Lace ( Not that this is a big whoopie-delio or nothing ) But I also designed 17 new products including their best selling single coil "Hot Golds" and Humbuckers " Drop & Gain " and "Arenas" I estimated that I made them over 1 million dollars in that 5 years and another million in another 5 years..

Not being able to scurry up some string for a Tele is not an red-flag... actually your string was too hard and did not have enough strands. I found the correct string here at Ace Hardware Stores. but don't get me wrong.. what a gester of kindness you sending it all the way here from the UK to help.. it was way cool of you to send it here, all my friends thought that was really nice of you and thanks again.


Now discovering why a certian vintage pup sounded better then most all other vintage pups is what put me here, and nothing else.. No marketing, No hype, No lies, No behind the scenes .. nothing.. a good pup speaks for itself and the customers will tell the world -- not the maker..

I was happy I found this Rosie wrappin' style to use and to be different from all other pup makers.. and I was happy not to have to try to market it, in any way shape or form.. just--- let it "speak for itself".. and thats all i do -- or ever care to do..

If this make's me disrespectfull to other makers then "Tough Cookies" nothing is stopping anybody from putting out a better product then mine.

and this is the nature of world commerce... every year we see the new leaders in electronics come out with something that leaves the others on the outside looking in...

Play into "this thing" I do here whatever you want to dream up about it or me or my customers, but nothing I have read here is true about me personally or my pups,or my customers, or is adding a "center-hump" going to equate to that "Rosie Wrap Tone" I use....



And "The Real Roy Buchanan Nancy tone" is not all inpart to the pups. by no means . this I found out as I returned to open up Nancy and have a look inside "Finally" and so nobody could ever wind a set to sound like Roys Nancy.. there also needs to be a circut to complete the REAL Nancy sound.. othewise they have only created a Blackgaurd Tele tones.. So just a set of pups would never go up side by side in a room..with the real Nancy.. for that you need some electronic mods to the guitars electronics.
Funny that people actually jump the gun and contribute the first signs of squeels and or any harmonics to Roys Nancy -- when In fact thats usally in all those Blackgaurd Tele bridges, and it's actually more-so in those "Stock" 50's Teles then it is in Roys actual guitar "Nancy".. Nancys harmonics and squells..etc.. are actually a little on the subdued side and have been tammed down by the circut that it's on. This is how Roy was able to really go on the attack it and not make the reverb go nuts or the speakers mesh the highs into a messy harsh blur.. wtch www.youtube.com (Roy Buchanan) and compair when hes on the maple neck "Nancy" to the White Guild or the Bill Lawrence 73 tele with a Rosewood neck... while he can and does hit the signiture hamonics and squeels with ease.. something that is far more hypnotic going down when Nancy is plugged in and things go more smoothly and are not as blurred or running away...

Cheers, My Friends.. I'm glad were all getting along at least.. it's always way nicer to be friends.
Don

[trioderob]

Pay attention trioderob!
I didn't suggest you were working for him. I said his self promotion is obviously working for him if you believe it....

Whatever you do, don't spout off about laws and defamation of character and then write that I said something I didn't.

you stated that he has posted reviews under the names of other people
which is a powerful statement. this may be true, if so fine.
I am just pointing out that this kind of statement on a public forum
can end a career, one of which he may want to keep!

there are also VERY positive reviews from people who I know
99% sure are not him. A few of these people have tried ALOT
of gear.

I spoke with him on the phone and he did not rub me the wrong way.
nothing he said sounded stupid to me.
he did not come across cockey or an ass.

there again the proof is in the pudding. he has sold pickups to other people.
lets assume he likes money. therefore he must sell to other people to make money. lets see the negative reviews by those people.

have you ever done a shootout of your tele pups vs his?

or his pickups vs the other well known makers?

how did his pickups sound to you?

[pupoholic]

please lets have peace.. and let this go.. were all only human and were all artist we tend to have emotions that can seem different then less talented folks..

how about we drop the Heat and get some cool air in here,

pretty please
Don

[JGundry]

I only do humbuckers so when I needed some pickups for my Telecaster I did a trade with both Don and Dave Stephens for some of my effects. I have to say that they both make great sounding Telecaster pickups. Right now the Roy wrap is in the bridge and Dave's tall Tele pickup is in the neck and they get along very well together. I am very, very happy with both pickups. Don from my experience has been a great guy to deal with. Same goes for Dave.

I don't think there is any shortage of chest thumping on forums like this. I can't fault anyone for doing it.

[Possum]

a comment or two...

to one of the last posts, "shootouts" don't work. Thats probably why you dont see them anymore. There are guys who think the best pickups in the world are Mighty Mites that cost $12, other guys think hand wound pickups are tits, other guys who wind by machine and think its the only way to go. There aren't any "best" pickups of any type and as a guitar player if you fall for this crap you do so at your peril, because then you have given your power away to someone else to tell you what is "best." This is one reason I don't push the forum sales that some guys work at real hard. You see these guitar forum "feeding frenzies" about some guy's pickups being so great and they all buy them because the other guy bought them because they all said they were incredible. Personally I don't want to sell to some mindless person like that because he's not making his own decisions and is most likely going to be disappointed by some mental image he's built up in his mind that no pickup can match. this is why I say beware ranting descriptions of "magic" winding patterns and pickups because there is no such thing.

to an earlier post I didn't say there aren't any particular winding patterns that have an effect , of course there are but you can just about count the winding patterns that actually do anything noticeable on the fingers of one hand. the laws of physics are real, the mass of copper wire you use, the metal its wound around and nearby, the type of alnico, number of winds all are ingedients in tone but are also LIMITERS of tone, you do too much of one and your treble goes away and you end up with midrange mush. If you want to believe that a "ball of yarn" coil is magic fine. As I said before BY DEFAULT an autowinder winds this kind of coil. Go look at any Gibson humbucker coil wound in the last 50 years and they all are this type of coil and all wound on automated machines set to wind a number of turns per layer. this doesn't give them some special magical tone. Good tone is something hard fought for, you need to know metal alloys, inductance, AC resistance and capacitance, wire guages, alnico grades etc. etc. and have the gear to see in numbers what each tiny part of the equation does to the end results. You can do this by ear which takes years or you can use test gear to give you immediate viewable hard data, and your ears. then end result is a pickup maker makes something that pleases him, someone else is not going to like it no matter what. My magic is not everyone's magic, my magic is based on hard facts and my ears. The mistake is to create myths about your work, all you do is oversell your product when you do this and ultimately you shoot yourself in the foot because no one's products can match a myth. I leave it to the customer to decide if there's magic in what I send them or not and I don't try to create some story just to sell a pickup.

[Spence]

You cannot be serious?

[ken]

I make singlecoil pickups, including Tele pickups, myself like I said in a prior post.

I think selfpromotion in an Internet forum like this one is a lot like farting in an elevator full of beautiful girls... You may get a lot of attention indeed but it may not be the kind you really wanted. This is a forum of friendly but possible competitors, which is why I like it here. Nobody really 'preaches to the chorus' here like some do in other musical forums. We all do the same basic thing here, so bragging would do no one any good.

Personally, I think a totally nonpartisan 'pickup tasting' is a primo idea. Some of you may remember that GP did one once a few years ago testing the 'most vintage' Strat pickups from people like Fralin and Rio Grande.

Possum is right, that 'shootouts' in general don't work because there are usually too many people involved, each with their own pet agendas. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide, so I have no problem with sending one of my Tele pickups to a totally credible testing ground (like GP or maybe VG magazine) for a 'Consumer Reports' type article.

Besides, I really want to see how one of my selfdesigned, handmachined by me, handassembled by me, handwound, individually serial numbered and signed pickups would stack up against other makers out there... oh damn, I think the rampant selfpromotion thing might be contagious...

ken